Author Topic: Let the fight begin !  (Read 14453 times)

TAB

  • DRTV Rangers
  • Top Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9964
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 92
Re: Let the fight begin !
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2014, 03:32:03 PM »
If it's a battle rifle, how about most guys it's killed?
that's easy, ak  only because they produced more and were given out to every one.
I always break all the clay pigeons,  some times its even with lead.

Solus

  • Top Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8664
  • DRTV Ranger
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 43
Re: Let the fight begin !
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2014, 04:16:38 PM »
Below is a link to a site that speaks to the early malfunctions of the M16 and how they were caused by the use of dirtier burning ball power rather than cleaner burning stick powder.  The word at that time was that the GAO found the velocity could be achieved by using the cheaper ball powder rather an the stick powder called for in the design specs, so the change was made by the accounts and the designers were not consulted.

It also talks to the instability that was designed into the 5.56 cartridge and the Stoner rifle.   They called for a 1 in 14 twist that would produce a pretty unstable bullet.  The tip of the bullet would move in a tiny circle around the axis of travel guaranteeing it would tumble upon impact.  I saw a picture sequence of that tumble and it went past 180 degrees to somewhere around  220 degrees then started back the other way.  It didn't seem realistic it could start back again, but I'm not a ballistics expert.  Anyway, this design instability is also covered in the article and the reasons the twist went from a devastating 1 in 14 to a very stable 1 in 7 twist.

http://www.futurefirepower.com/myths-about-the-nato-556-cartridge
Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"
—Patrick Henry

"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
— Daniel Webster

Solus

  • Top Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8664
  • DRTV Ranger
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 43
Re: Let the fight begin !
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2014, 04:20:47 PM »
that's easy, ak  only because they produced more and were given out to every one.

True.  The one with the most users over the longest time will likely have the most kills...and it could as well be the least effective killer as the most effective.

And where do you get reliable statistics on combat rifle kills?

More Americans were killed in the Civil War than any other war we have entered.  Perhaps a Civil War rifle should make the list?
Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"
—Patrick Henry

"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
— Daniel Webster

Timothy

  • Guest
Let the fight begin !
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2014, 04:52:13 PM »
I read somewhere that for every Vietnamese casualty over 100,000 rounds of ammo was fired...

Who knows?  Poodle shooter or spray and pray...

I've never been in a firefight!  I won't speculate on what works or doesn't..  How many here have been in combat? 

Hell, even the great and powerful Pincus never made it to active duty!

kmitch200

  • Top Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2290
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Let the fight begin !
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2014, 09:03:40 PM »
It also talks to the instability that was designed into the 5.56 cartridge and the Stoner rifle. They called for a 1 in 14 twist that would produce a pretty unstable bullet.
Not exactly correct.
The author is comparing apples to God knows what and should have applied more research and common sense into his article. 
1 in 14" is OK for stabilizing a 55gr bullet, *until* you get to below freezing temps as noted.
Current Remington .223 varmint rifles have 1 in 12 and do just fine with bullets up to 64gr.
Quote
The tip of the bullet would move in a tiny circle around the axis of travel guaranteeing it would tumble upon impact.
{{{cough cough bullshit!! cough }}}
Doesn't guarantee anything since ALL bullets do this...from 22lr to 16" Iowa class guns.
In order for there to be zero yaw, the bullet, barrel, chamber, i.e. everything would have to be made absolutely PERFECT with NO +/- variation at all....and that hasn't happened yet.
Impact velocity has more to do with the tumbling and/or fragmentation of a fmj bullet than rifling twist ever did.
Quote
Anyway, this design instability is also covered in the article and the reasons the twist went from a devastating 1 in 14 to a very stable 1 in 7 twist.
They went to a faster twist to get stability for the longer 62gr SS109/855 bullets. (and the longer yet tracer bullets)
Not only are they heavier, they are long for their weight due to not being all lead.   
(same reason Barnes bullets are long for their weight - no lead) 
You can say lots of bad things about pedophiles; but at least they drive slowly past schools.

Sponsor

  • Guest
Re: Let the fight begin !
« Reply #15 on: Today at 03:56:39 AM »

Solus

  • Top Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8664
  • DRTV Ranger
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 43
Re: Let the fight begin !
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2014, 09:26:00 AM »
Not exactly correct.
The author is comparing apples to God knows what and should have applied more research and common sense into his article. 
1 in 14" is OK for stabilizing a 55gr bullet, *until* you get to below freezing temps as noted.
Current Remington .223 varmint rifles have 1 in 12 and do just fine with bullets up to 64gr. {{{cough cough bullshit!! cough }}}
Doesn't guarantee anything since ALL bullets do this...from 22lr to 16" Iowa class guns.
In order for there to be zero yaw, the bullet, barrel, chamber, i.e. everything would have to be made absolutely PERFECT with NO +/- variation at all....and that hasn't happened yet.

Impact velocity has more to do with the tumbling and/or fragmentation of a fmj bullet than rifling twist ever did. They went to a faster twist to get stability for the longer 62gr SS109/855 bullets. (and the longer yet tracer bullets)
Not only are they heavier, they are long for their weight due to not being all lead.   
(same reason Barnes bullets are long for their weight - no lead)

Can't argue with that, but would a bullet with greater instability be more likely to tumble after impact than one as stable as possible?

Also, it is not a good idea to change the design to work better in zero temps when you are currently fighting in the jungle.  That may have been the reason, but it was stupid.   Like issuing arctic clothing to wear fight in the jungle.
Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"
—Patrick Henry

"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
— Daniel Webster

Big Frank

  • NRA Benefactor Member
  • Top Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9445
  • DRTV Ranger
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 1036
Re: Let the fight begin !
« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2014, 02:07:23 PM »
Can't argue with that, but would a bullet with greater instability be more likely to tumble after impact than one as stable as possible?

Also, it is not a good idea to change the design to work better in zero temps when you are currently fighting in the jungle.  That may have been the reason, but it was stupid.   Like issuing arctic clothing to wear fight in the jungle.

It would be equally stupid to make it so the bullets are only stable in 100 degree heat, especially when there was a chance of fighting the soviets in winter. The bullets have to be stable at any temperature and it takes a 1:7" twist to stabilize the tracers now in use. If it wasn't for those long tracers a 1:9" twist would work.
""It may be laid down as a primary position, and the basis of our system, that every Citizen who enjoys the protection of a free Government, owes not only a proportion of his property, but even his personal services to the defence of it, and consequently that the Citizens of America (with a few legal and official exceptions) from 18 to 50 Years of Age should be borne on the Militia Rolls, provided with uniform Arms, and so far accustomed to the use of them, that the Total strength of the Country might be called forth at a Short Notice on any very interesting Emergency." - George Washington. Letter to Alexander Hamilton, Friday, May 02, 1783

THE RIGHT TO BUY WEAPONS IS THE RIGHT TO BE FREE - A. E. van Vogt, The Weapon Shops of Isher

Solus

  • Top Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8664
  • DRTV Ranger
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 43
Re: Let the fight begin !
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2014, 02:43:50 PM »
It would be equally stupid to make it so the bullets are only stable in 100 degree heat, especially when there was a chance of fighting the soviets in winter. The bullets have to be stable at any temperature and it takes a 1:7" twist to stabilize the tracers now in use. If it wasn't for those long tracers a 1:9" twist would work.

How difficult would it be to do it right and have two barrels and to bullet weights so none of the troops had to fight with an  inferior weapon?

To me, anything less is what is stupid
Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"
—Patrick Henry

"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
— Daniel Webster

kmitch200

  • Top Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2290
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Let the fight begin !
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2014, 09:14:16 PM »
Can't argue with that, but would a bullet with greater instability be more likely to tumble after impact than one as stable as possible?
FMJs will tumble. If the velocity is high enough you also get the desired fragmentation. WITH fragmentation you get a MUCH larger perm. wound channel. They won't do the damage they are supposed to if they don't fragment, only bullet sized permanent wound cavities.
The jacket thickness and placement of the cannelure helps or hinders it's ability to fragment.

The problems occured (IMHO) when bullets were spec'd to penetrate a 10 gauge steel test plate (simulation of a helmet) at a range of at least 570 meters (623 yards). They are *supposed* to be doing at least 3000fps from a 20" barrel. (measured 78ft! from muzzle)

Add heavier bullet (62gr vs 55gr) + shorter M4 barrel (lower velocity) = a bullet that is going too slow to fragment at longer range.
Fine if you're in a house, not so fine if BG is 400+ meters away on Sh!tholistan Mt. 

Quote
Also, it is not a good idea to change the design to work better in zero temps when you are currently fighting in the jungle.  That may have been the reason, but it was stupid. Like issuing arctic clothing to wear fight in the jungle.
All that did was provide better stability through air. The terminal effects didn't change at all. The bullets were still 55gr, the barrels were still 20" long and they were still hauling ass. 
With typical govt efficiency, if they had 2 main issue weapons, someone would get M16s in the arctic and pallets of 7.62 to feed them...
 
You can say lots of bad things about pedophiles; but at least they drive slowly past schools.

tombogan03884

  • Guest
Re: Let the fight begin !
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2014, 07:57:13 AM »
Gee, I guess my assertion that a .223 doesn't belong on the list of best rifles.  ;D
Maybe that's why people who actually used them in combat developed the 6.5, 6.8, and .300 Blackout.
Of course you realize that Stoner's original design was a .308 ?

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk