Author Topic: Warning on using E85 Fuels in Older Cars  (Read 1284 times)

m58

  • Top Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8690
  • DRTV Ranger
Re: Warning on using E85 Fuels in Older Cars
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2013, 01:52:17 pm »
I have owned E85 vehicles, our two current ones aren't because when you buy used you take what you can get, and I did run E85 based on price.  Industry states a 15% reduction in economy, so you want to pay 15% less for the fuel.  Typical actual numbers found is Chrysler does drop 15%, Ford and GM will drop 7%.  It is true that you get fewer miles on a tank, but you also spend less per mile on that tank.

With blender pumps I have run 15% in the pickup with no notable change in mileage.  Pure gas does get about 5% better in the pickup and 10% better in the bike than 10%.  I blended the 15% to see what I could expect when it is mandated, and since not every state mandates the blend at all I have tried the ethanol free when it is there.

The most important thing is to pick a blend and stick with it.  It takes a couple tanks for the computer to adjust to the oxygen levels, so drivability suffers for a period with each change.

My biggest issue on this whole debate is exactly the same as the pro vs. anti gun debate:  Use facts, and quit twisting the truth to meet your wishes!
If I appear taller than other men it is because I am standing on the shoulders of others.

The Down Range TV Forum

Re: Warning on using E85 Fuels in Older Cars
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2013, 01:52:17 pm »

m58

  • Top Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8690
  • DRTV Ranger
Re: Warning on using E85 Fuels in Older Cars
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2013, 01:56:22 pm »
Peg -

The only difference between a flex fuel engine and a standard engine, actually vehicle, is the fuel pump and the injectors.  In most cases replacement fuel pumps are all flex fuel and sometimes the injectors are as well, but regardless you can put the flex fuel components in your vehicle with no modifications.  The reason for the difference is that ethanol does not have the lubricity of gasoline and will overheat pumps and wear injectors.  The rest of the sensors and computers all do the same job regardless of the blend.
If I appear taller than other men it is because I am standing on the shoulders of others.

tombogan03884

  • Freedom isn't Free
  • Top Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 30455
  • DRTV Ranger
Re: Warning on using E85 Fuels in Older Cars
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2013, 02:09:54 pm »
Actually it's every seal and gasket in the fuel system since ethanol, as stated previously, is a solvent and eats many types of the rubber and plastic they are made of.
Burning food in your tank is stupid.
America
1775 - 2012
It was fun while it lasted  :(

m58

  • Top Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8690
  • DRTV Ranger
Re: Warning on using E85 Fuels in Older Cars
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2013, 02:20:48 pm »
Actually it's every seal and gasket in the fuel system since ethanol, as stated previously, is a solvent and eats many types of the rubber and plastic they are made of.
Burning food in your tank is stupid.

Tom,

Fuel components in vehicles since the 70's have been compatible with ethanol.  Methanol is the alcohol product that gave alcohol fuels a bad name.

As far as burning food:  The biproduct of ethanol production is a more valuable human and animal food product than raw #2 corn.  It does have draw backs in some animal feeds, but in the majority of feeds it offsets some high protein meals and also allows the use of other low quality feedstuffs.

As I have stated before, pay the farmer for his product, and he will market it that way.  We refused to pay them, so they developed a profitable market on their own.  Corn yield increases have kept pace with ethanol demands, but exports have also increased due to our poor economic condition.  The next time our dollar is strong and exports slow we will see prices drop again, even with ethanol production.
If I appear taller than other men it is because I am standing on the shoulders of others.

PegLeg45

  • Chuck Goins: NRA Life, SAF, Constitutionalist
  • Top Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10853
  • DRTV Ranger
Re: Warning on using E85 Fuels in Older Cars
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2013, 02:21:38 pm »
JFTR: Wasn't saying anyone was wrong here..... just stating my own observations.   ;)



The reason for the different injectors is also the same with alcohol (ethanol) burning carbs (they take larger primary and secondary jets)..... it takes a different flow rate, which is also the reason for the fuel pump difference. That is also the reason for the 15% loss in mileage.....it takes slightly more volume of flow to get the same performance values.

I read in a GM bulletin at my dealership several years back that for certain year models, all of certain engine sizes (5.3 for example) were designed for Flex Fuel, even if not marked on the vehicle.....but you needed to know which years. The reason was that even though the pumps and injectors were the same on most models, the ignition timing and cam profiles were changed on a certain few runs of vehicles which caused some issues.


*As a side note, a neighbor down the road has a '68 Camaro with a 383 SB. He changed the timing, replaced the whole fuel system with a high-flow Holley fuel pump and SS lines and re-jetted the Dominator carb and the thing loves E85.
"It does not take a majority to prevail...... but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men." ~ Samuel Adams

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined...The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun."~Patrick Henry

For the Patriots of this country, the Constitution is second only to the Bible for most. For those who love this country, but do not share my personal beliefs, it is their Bible. To them nothing comes before the Constitution of these United States of America. For this we are all labeled potential terrorists. ~ Dean Garrison

"When it comes to the enemy, just because they ain't pullin' a trigger, doesn't mean they ain't totin' ammo for those that are."~PegLeg

PegLeg45

  • Chuck Goins: NRA Life, SAF, Constitutionalist
  • Top Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10853
  • DRTV Ranger
Re: Warning on using E85 Fuels in Older Cars
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2013, 02:33:48 pm »
Most of the fuel system problems caused by ethanol were from systems that have been modified or replaced with non-spec rubber lines. Small engines like on lawn mowers and ATV's and motorcycles have had problems due to the specs of the rubber, but most of those say up front in the manual to never use high concentrates of ethanol fuel. Our Yamaha Rhino says to use only 87 octane E10 or less.



Also, as a side note many folks get confused about the trashing of the fuel system..... that is way more of a problem for bio-diesel than ethanol.

My son was on the bio-fuel energy team that went to state fir our region FFA his senior year. They did a test on a tractor fuel system that was 20 years old by running bio-diesel in it. After one tank, the fuel system basically shredded itself and had to be replaced. When making the bio-diesel, one missed step causes the whole batch to basically become Go-Jo hand soap...... and even when it comes out as usable diesel, its cleaning properties will bring all the sludge and impurities out of an old system and wreak havoc on it.
"It does not take a majority to prevail...... but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men." ~ Samuel Adams

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined...The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun."~Patrick Henry

For the Patriots of this country, the Constitution is second only to the Bible for most. For those who love this country, but do not share my personal beliefs, it is their Bible. To them nothing comes before the Constitution of these United States of America. For this we are all labeled potential terrorists. ~ Dean Garrison

"When it comes to the enemy, just because they ain't pullin' a trigger, doesn't mean they ain't totin' ammo for those that are."~PegLeg

jumbofrank

  • NRA Benefactor Member
  • Top Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4798
  • DRTV Ranger
Re: Warning on using E85 Fuels in Older Cars
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2013, 04:11:16 pm »
For the guys that say ethanol is a solvent, so is gasoline, so why the big fuss?
THE RIGHT TO BUY WEAPONS IS THE RIGHT TO BE FREE

crusader rabbit

  • Top Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2252
  • DRTV Ranger
Re: Warning on using E85 Fuels in Older Cars
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2013, 08:14:19 am »
For the guys that say ethanol is a solvent, so is gasoline, so why the big fuss?

Different solvents dissolve different stuff and mix with each other in different ways.  Water is a solvent, but it won't mix with gasoline.  It will mix with alcohol which will then mix with gasoline.  That what most of the "water removal" additives are down at the auto parts store.

Deepwater had the experience of having the liner of his motorcycle's fuel tank came off in flakes, clogging the rest of the fuel system.  This was because alcohol dissolves different stuff than gasoline.  It was an expensive and problematic correction.

As to the burning food in your gas tank issue, I agree that it should have been left to market forces without government subsidies to determine if that is a good idea. 

From personal observation, as the price of tortillas increased (nearly doubled) in Mexico and Guatemala, poor people struggled more, and more people went hungry.  Those governments subsidized tortilla production to help keep the price down on the one side, but with ethanol production subsidized on the other side, you can't win the price battle.  Poor people lose the most because their meager monies are not enough to buy necessary food.

The Brazillian model is certainly not perfect.  But they do have the advantage of making ethanol out of an essentially unneeded plant base.  Sugar ain't food.

And whatever supposed advantage post-production corn may have as an animal feed, we certainly are not seeing it in the meat markets.

Finally, while Tom may see commies under every rock, I think they are under enough of 'em it's not safe for any of us to be in our current rock quarry--unless we are carrying an awful lot of snake-shot. 

Since the '50s, this country has moved so far to the left that JFK would be considered a middle of the road Republican today.  Moving the country "back to the center" is in reality keeping it well left of center.  The political battle to save the country from the commies has been lost.  If it is to be saved, it will be through some form of revolution.  But, as Tom has noted, most of the sheeple will quietly hand in their guns and stand in line at the cattle cars waiting to be transported to the camps.

I weep for my nation,
Crusader
“I’ve lived the literal meaning of the ‘land of the free’ and ‘home of the brave.’ It’s not corny for me. I feel it in my heart. I feel it in my chest. Even at a ball game, when someone talks during the anthem or doesn’t take off his hat, it pisses me off. I’m not one to be quiet about it, either.”  Chris Kyle

Jrlobo

  • Top Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 633
Re: Warning on using E85 Fuels in Older Cars
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2013, 03:00:46 pm »
Sugar ain't food? Bullets ain't guns either, but what use are guns without bullets? My wife just made a german chocolate cake that I wouldn't dream of eating unless there was some that food-less sugar in it. I've tasted it with sugar substitutes...no thank you. Just watch what happens to food prices when we divert sugar cane production for engine fuel purposes. Stop and think folks. This is all a zero-sum game, rob peter to pay paul, situation.
Lobo

"Often in error, never in doubt!"

wtr100

  • Top Forum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 447
Re: Warning on using E85 Fuels in Older Cars
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2013, 03:25:00 pm »
Actually it's every seal and gasket in the fuel system since ethanol, as stated previously, is a solvent and eats many types of the rubber and plastic they are made of.
Burning food in your tank is stupid.

seems to me seals are either resistant to ethanol or not

I watch the price and when E-20 or E-25 is lowere than E-10 I'll run that -
Have your musket clean as a whistle, hatchet scoured, 60 rounds powder and ball and be ready to march at a minute's warning.