Author Topic: Las Vegas CCW Shooting - what to learn from it  (Read 13625 times)

Marshal Halloway

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Las Vegas CCW Shooting - what to learn from it
« on: September 21, 2010, 10:46:27 PM »

This week's Down Range Radio focuses on what should concealed carry holders do when they are “made.” This is an important and controversial issue that anyone who carries a gun needs to hear.

Listen to the DR Radio here: http://www.downrange.tv/blog/down-range-radio-179/6168/

Below you'll find some of Michael's thoughts and opinions triggered by shooting in Vegas. In addition, we'll post comments from well known firearms instructors. Forum members are welcome to join.

Quoting Michael:

This is not a specific evaluation of the actions of either Erik Scott or the Las Vegas PD. Suffice to say that we don't know the whole story and won't know the whole story until it is hammered out in subsequent investigations and in court.

What I AM looking for is as much as possible, given differing laws in differing jurisdictions, is a "standard" set of responses for civilian CCW holders faced with similar situations.

Here are some of my thoughts that came out of that discussion:

• When a legal CCW holder is confronted over a trespass issue, that is, carrying a firearm in a business that does not permit such carry:

1) First and foremost, the "Mike O'Day Rule" is immediately in effect:

"Here lies the grave of Mike O'Day
Who died maintaining his right of way
His right was clear
And his will was strong
But he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong"

While we are certainly concerned with the rightness and wrongness of our actions and the actions of others, our primary focus is EXACTLY as it is in a violent encounter — to get you and ours out alive. A secondary consideration is to get you and yours and NOT go directly to jail. I think, in fact, that it is prudent to treat an encounter like this as a Condition Red situation, with — as we saw in Las Vegas — a potential to go from zero to lethal very quickly.

2) A person is not obligated by law to provide ID, information or to answer questions from a store employee or paid security personnel. That said, I might strongly suggest that it makes sense to answer questions — nothing will panic a 22-year old pimple-faced former Taco Bell taco roller faster than dead silence — but to do so ambiguously.

"Excuse me, sir...I'm the assistant manager here and, are you carrying a gun?"

[Amiably: "Why, sir, I don't think that's any of your business. Why would you ask me something like that?"

I don't believe that this is the time, the forum or the audience to deliver a lecture on Second Amendment rights. I want to always answer a question with a question to tie up as much of my opponent's "computing power" as possible. I am NOT interested in his/her answers, nor am I even remotely interested in engaging in a "dialog." The "answer a question with a question" is strictly a tactic aimed at ending the Condition Red.

3) Assuming the confrontation escalates from his side, it seems to me that the "best" — best being defined as the most likely strategy to end the confrontation — would be to simple leave the facility in question, but do so from as strong a position as possible:

"You have a gun and we don't allow guns in this store!"

"Oh, is there a sign posted, because you know by law you have to post a sign...had I seen a sign, I wouldn't have shopped here, because I don't do business with companies who don't respect American's rights...where is your sign?"

Admit nothing...again, a civilian is under no obligation to answer questions to non-sworn store personnel. I think at this point (or earlier) the CCW holder needs to access his/her phone, probably with an inform to the employee. "I'm going to get out my phone, because I may need to call the police or my attorney..."

4) If you're asked to leave, leave — the Mike O'Day Rule is in effect! Two points here — be explicit ("Of course I'm leaving, because I will take my business elsewhere...") and IMMEDIATELY ask to speak to management ("Please ask your store manager to meet me outside the front door...I will be calling both the police, because I feel that you are threatening me here, and my attorney...").

5) Follow though...exit the store, speak with the manager, being sure to get the correct spelling of his/or name; if the encounter with the employee was anything but courteous, call the police and report being threatened. I realize this is controversial, but what I'm trying to do here is establish the "good guy called first" situation.

6) If the employee calls security personnel, I am going to have to come down on the side of calling the police immediately, as I am now being threatened and I want my side of the story on tape at police headquarters. Again, if asked to leave I will immediately leave, as per above. If I have purchased or to-be-purchased product, security personnel are welcome to it. However, I will NOT under any circumstances agree to be searched or allow a search of any kind. Nor will I allow myself to be detained...that is called kidnapping. I mention this because it has happened to me. I set off an alarm on the way out of a Best Buy...security personnel stopped me and asked to see my receipt and the purchased product I was carrying, which I readily showed them. He asked for ID, and I said, "What for?" I was then told that I was going to be searched. I began opening up distance and told the security personnel that I did not consent to a search, would not consent to a search and that if I was touched I would consider it an assault and would respond in kind. I was then told I was being "detained" until the police could be summoned. I said, "No thank you...have a nice day" and left. On that occasion I did not call the police...I should have and would if this happened again (although I've never set foot in Best Buy again).

7) On confrontations with the police, I think we're probably on the same page here — DROP THE GUN, if it's in your hand; if it's not in your hand, KEEP YOUR HANDS IN THE AIR AND MAKE NO MOVE TOWARD YOUR HOLSTERED GUN! Do exactly as you're told! If you're taken into custody, ASK FOR YOUR LAWYER and then SHUT UP!

Okay...what do you guys think so far?

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Re: Las Vegas CCW Shooting - what to learn from it
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2010, 10:51:12 PM »

MB,

I just read this through twice on the blackberry.... All looks sound to me. I think the "engage verbally while exiting anyway" strategy is really important to not causing a panic by just going silent and making for the door. Some people will fail at this moment by not understanding the tactical use of words.... This, as you said, is not a time for legal debate or constitutional history lessons.

I also like the bit about asking for clarification of the policies and to be shown the sign, which is something we've advised for students who accidentally end up in such places. That move usually gets you to the exit and then getting to your car and leaving should be pretty simple.

Rob Pincus
I.C.E. Training
http://www.icetraining.us/
http://www.icetraining.us/

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Re: Las Vegas CCW Shooting - what to learn from it
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2010, 10:53:36 PM »

Michael and da gang,
 
FYI: Helpful hints, DO NOT ALLOW SECURITY GUARDS to detain you. In many  states this is unlawful, you may leave, they have no authority to hold you.  Having been harassed a few times (note that I am a police officer) I normally respond with “ You are holding me against my will, this is a felony, kidnapping/unlawful restraint” I then pull my phone out and start dialing 911.   Some Guards a tad overzealous.
 
When asked to leave a store, do so immediately. To stay or otherwise dawdle can and will be construed as trespassing/criminal trespass etc. Make an appt to speak with management at a later date.
 
+1 on calling the cops (hopefully I will respond!). Leave your phone on while the calltaker/911/dispatch is on the line, they will be recording EVERYTHING. Be polite to the Manager/Guard, stating things like “Don’t touch me” “Ouch” and “ Yes, I am leaving, stop pushing” or the like will be forever in evidence. (as will any heated statements on the CCW’s part…ssshhhhh) A phone in your shirt pocket transmitting will record darn near everything.
 
Lawyer Lawyer Lawyer, also ACLU (yeah, really) Get those Security and Patrol Cam tapes copied in your Attorneys file asap.
 
Your doing God’s Work Michael, THANK YOU!
 
Andy Langlois
http://www.shottist.com/
http://andysleather.com/
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Re: Las Vegas CCW Shooting - what to learn from it
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2010, 10:56:04 PM »

Michael,
 
Some comments for you;
 
1.  In Arizona it is against the law NOT to leave an establishment if you are carrying a weapon and are asked to leave.  A couple of caveats, the establishment must be posted with a correctly worded sign easily seen and the law does not apply to non-Arizona residents (probably because they are presumed not to know state law).
 
2.  That said, for what it is worth, the local Costco here in Prescott is improperly posted.
 
3.  HR-218/LEOSA for active and retired police officers allows you to ignore some of the Arizona concealed carry law sections, such as the prohibition against carrying on school grounds.  Isn't that curious? 
 
4.  This means you really need to know what the law is where you are.
 
5.  Still, in general, totally agree that arguing and asserting your rights is NOT the way to go.  I like your idea of always countering with a question but I would recommend a less threatening or confrontational approach as you don't want to ratchet up the tensions by acting threatening in any way ("I'm calling my attorney/ I'll sue you." might not be as good as "You don't mind if I leave, do you?")
 
6.  If you know the police are going to be involved, totally agree that making your own call and getting your side of events recorded and broadcast to responding units is in your best interests.  This should be stressed as most people don't know or teach this and it is very important.
 
7.  Since you cannot possibly know the law in every state or town it is important to keep your weapon concealed and stay as low profile as possible.  I'm with you, by the way, I'll not be "Laid a hand to" by store security personnel.
 
8.  Once engaged with the police understand that they have an entirely different perception of the events than do you.  If you can't make out what they want you to do DON'T MOVE!  (Watch "Cops" on TV as officers point guns at people and scream conflicting commands:  "Get on the ground! Don't move! Show me your hands! Get your hands up!")  Don't get yourself shot because the police are acting excited, scared, confused, overly-authoritative or crazy.  Understand, as well, once the police are there, right or wrong, they are in charge and you must try to do what they tell you to do.  Arguing, fleeing, fighting, is not going to be in your best interests.  These days there isn't much good for you that is going to come out of a confrontation with the police.  Do everything you can to avoid it, but if involved, do your best to be non-threatening and cooperative.
 
9.  We all get angry when our rights are being threatened and none of us likes being pushed around, especially by over zealous people, whether they be idiot store clerks or frightened police officers.  Stay as low profile as possible, don't let anyone see that you are carrying, get away from any confrontation if you can, and don't start fights but finish them quickly and efficiently if you have to.  Remember:  The best gunfight is the one you don't attend!
 
DVC,
 
Ed Head
GUNSITE Academy
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alfsauve

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Re: Las Vegas CCW Shooting - what to learn from it
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2010, 07:03:22 AM »
Silence is threating to many, but choosing words carefully is as important.  NEVER LIE, but you don't have to directly answer the question either.  I like the "deflect with question" approach that politicians are so good at.

Stock questions asked with sincerity and without threatening the employee's ego.   Even asked as though we are buddies.

Is there a store policy on that?
Does the state require a sign?
Is that posted by the front door?
Could we go look?
Would you like me to leave?
Is the store manager around, today?
Want to walk with me?
Hold my packages?

And of course with LEOs or anyone who is armed,  No movements unless granted permission.   "My ID is in my front left pocket."    In more than one case, people have been shot while retrieving their wallets.   Think NYC and Florida.

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Re: Las Vegas CCW Shooting - what to learn from it
« Reply #5 on: Today at 06:42:07 AM »

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Re: Las Vegas CCW Shooting - what to learn from it
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2010, 09:42:07 AM »

Michael, I think you have some very sound advice, esp. getting people thinking that they do not need to submit to search or being restrained by store employees.

On the other hand, people must know when to retreat and avoid confrontation, as you spell out. We live in such a society of busybodies that a lot of people are half a second away from becoming enraged at being told what to do yet again by yet someone else who has assumed authority. I've wondered if that was what happened in LV, the guy failed to throttle back the natural outrage at yet another trying to control his actions? There is no way to know.

A man of my acquaintance was involved in a shoving incident some years ago in which a big-box store employee attempted to make him stay in the store to determine if he had purchased the child's bike he was pushing out of the store. His way was blocked by a huge security employee, a man about twice his size, and then the elderly store greeter stepped in and also blocked his way. He pushed past them to leave, but in the effort to get past them, the old  greeter guy got his feet tangled and fell down and slid across the floor. Cops called, criminal charges filed. After a lot of effort, he beat the criminal charge, but is now defending a civil complaint against him stemming from that incident.

I mention that incident not because anyone did anything right that day, but to point out that the legal repercussions to resistance can go on and on and on. That is one reason your verbal judo of asking a question in response to the security guy's question is such a good start, IMO. It might open up enough time to disengage without getting into a shoving match or worse.

Gila Hayes
The Firearms Academy of Seattle, Inc.
http://www.firearmsacademy.com
http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org



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Re: Las Vegas CCW Shooting - what to learn from it
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2010, 09:46:06 AM »

Mike and friends,


Here are some thoughts in random order.

First, I normally wear two guns, a primary and a BUG. I have done so now for 39 years of continual, every day, no exceptions, all the time being armed, all over the US. I have never been challenged on that, not once.  The reason? Simple-- I keep my gun(s) concealed. That means no one knows they are there.  If I go into a store or other place that doesn't like guns, no one bothers me about it, because they don't know I am armed.

In my experience, the guys who wear guns openly into stores and other public places in urban areas are abrasive, "in your face" personalities, who are  to a degree, looking for a confrontation.   " Yeah, I'm wearin' a gun. It's my right." may be an accurate statement, but it just starts a confrontation that need not occur at all. I base this statement on a lot of experience with these types, both from a law enforcement perspective and later as a full time trainer. I'm sure there are exceptions, but I never run into them. YMMV.

Second, as has been stated, ALWAYS do exactly what the nice policeman with the big gun says to do! Do not argue, do not hesitate. Do as directed. The time for discussion is AFTER the officer has a perception of control over the situation and feels physically safe. To do otherwise invites being shot by the police.

Mike, I am a bit uncomfortable with your advice about not submitting to being detained by store personnel or security. In some states, including mine, there is no difference between the powers of arrest for a police officer and a security guard or private citizen, for offenses committed in their presence.    If carrying into their store is a law violation, you might find yourself facing assault or resisting arrest charges for trying to forcefully disengage once they attempt to detain you. Again, if they don't know you have a gun, they have no reason to attempt to detain you, so keep it concealed.

Finally, I want to second calling the police after any confrontation, no matter how minor, where it becomes public knowledge that you are armed.  There are two blanks at the top of a police report. One says "Complainant/Victim", the other says "Suspect".  You always want to be listed in the first blank, "Victim", not as "Suspect".  Say you have a verbal confrontation with someone who sees that you are carrying a gun, because you carry it visibly. You leave, thinking it's over. He, however, calls the police with your description and tag number, and says you pointed a gun at him and threatened to kill him. The police find you, find a gun on you, and list you as "Suspect" on an Aggravated Assault report. You face a felony charge, bondsman fees, lawyer fees, time off work, and the possibility of prison time and a felony record, all because you were too lazy or immature to conceal your gun properly. Bad juju. Keep it concealed.

Tom Givens
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Re: Las Vegas CCW Shooting - what to learn from it
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2010, 09:55:41 AM »

His store, your gun. Deny and leave.

Get to car and disarm.

Call 911, tell story and describe yourself and vehicle.

When cops arrive and depending on approach, sit down or prone out.

Follow their orders to the letter.
 
Walt Rauch
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Re: Las Vegas CCW Shooting - what to learn from it
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2010, 12:02:33 PM »
Michael,

This is great information. Being new (within 5 yrs) to CCW, I'm glad that you have this topic for discussion. I have always wondered if someone would ask me, other than an officer, how should I respond to this confrontation. In Michigan we have some fuzzy rules as to where and where not to carry. We have had some conversation at the range regarding this specific topic. You may have heard Michigan has an open carry law, and that has been challenged lately. With cities finding that they need to change their rules, because of a violation in State and Federal law. So for private property owners and even public property and facilities it may sometimes be unclear who is right.  The best thing that we pro gun owners can do, is to keep the confrontation low key, diffuse it without escalation, and pick the proper time and place to make your position known. We don't need a dead martyr to prove a point.

Bottom line is I would like to hear more, or even see something about this in a future shows.

Thank you!

Regards,  Jim
The Constitution preserves "the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation. . . (where) the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." -- The Federalist, No. 46

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PegLeg45

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Re: Las Vegas CCW Shooting - what to learn from it
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2010, 02:11:45 PM »
A personal thanks to MB and all the professional instructors that have posted this valuable information. Info like this is always welcome, IMHO.

I've been a CCW for 20+ years and a firm believer in not becoming complacent in CCW 'tactics'. The information in this thread is top notch info, and reminds us all the we need to constantly evaluate our own standards of carry regarding our carry environment and the laws governing such. I pretty much lean heavily with what Mr. Givens posted in my own non-professional opinion, and that is the way I carry myself, i.e. "out of sight, out of mind" and "call the cops first and do what they say".

Thanks for sharing,

Chuck Goins
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