The Down Range Forum
Flying Dragon Productions ( Michael Bane ) => Shooting Gallery on Outdoor Channel => Topic started by: Marshal Halloway on January 26, 2009, 11:02:54 PM
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Lever Action Self Defense
Episode #109
The lever action rife is one of the most overlooked self-defense tools out there — accurate, powerful, easy to shoot and inexpensive. Host Bane gathered together several fans of the lever gun, including Dick Williams from SureFire, Dave Biggars from XS Sights, "Tupelo Flash," host of COWBOYS, and former LEO and firearms trainer Steve Hendricks at the world-class Swanson Tactical Training Center in Utah to wring the old rifles out. [ LEARN MORE... (http://www.downrange.tv/shootinggallery/episode109.htm) ]
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I caught part of the show tonight, and I saw one of the lever action rifles had an accessory rail on the forend where lights could be attached. Where can I find accessory rails for lights and such for a Marlin? All I am able to find are the xs sight rails for optics.
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My lever gun is a hand-me-down and is a model 93 receiver and a 36 fore-end. It's solid, but in 30-30, I always thougt it was a little much for in the home. Am I wrong?
With its metal butt plate, it hammers the shoulder.
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I'm glad I've got it on DVR. I'll have to watch it when I get home.
The good thing about a lever action is you can own it anywhere in the country... its not like that with say an AR or other semi auto rifle.
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Look at the learn more links on our episode page:
http://www.downrange.tv/shootinggallery/episode109.htm
XS Sights has a rail system for the Marlin.
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Thanks Marshall. I checked the episode website as well as the entire xs sights website, and I was only able to find the rails for the optics. I guess if xs has a forend rail system for lights and accessories, it's not posted on their website yet.
Does anyone know of a company that makes a light attachment for a Marlin mag tube?
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One night my granddad, grandma, and uncle (at the time 17) were home on night, they lived way out in the boon docks, and a drunk man came pounding on the door at 2am in the morning. My granddad opens the door and carefully begins dealing with this man. The man drunk, irate, and demands that my granddad drive him to Bandara. Of course my granddad refuses and lets the man know that he'll call the police for him. The man becomes enraged, starts screaming, and then my uncle cocks his lever action rifle he's holding behind the door, that sobers the drunk up real quick. He apologizes, walks off and is picked up be the police a few minutes later. It turns out this is the second house he had gone to that night and the cops where on their way.
So I guess a lever action may have that pump action shotgun effect, every one knows what they sound like and what they can do. As far as my opinion on the usefulness in the home, I'd imagine it would be much like a pump action, but I would be curious to know the ballistics.
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Ballistics of a 30/30 are in the same range as 7.62 X 39. If you would use an AK on a given target/threat then 30/30 would be equally effective. And with soft point hunting loads now available the opposite is true for game.
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We would like you to have the episode on TV side of this site Please. I enjoyed it Thank you.
Maybe you all could do a show on matching lever gun and hand gun caliber the benificts and uses. Such as when clearing the house on that show last night he was carring a 1911 or such instead of a 45 Long Colt revolver. Same Ammo for both guns.
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Ballistics of a 30/30 are in the same range as 7.62 X 39. If you would use an AK on a given target/threat then 30/30 would be equally effective. And with soft point hunting loads now available the opposite is true for game.
I was thinking more like 357.
BB has this for listing of normal persure 357 loads from a 18.5" lever gun.
a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard Cast = 1851 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC = 1860 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Speer Uni Core = 2153 fps---- Can you believe this?!!!
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Speer Uni Core = 2298 fps---- Or this?!!!
I've always found thier number to be spot on.
here is win super x 123 ga soft points ( from thier web site) 7.62x 39
Muzzle Velocity: 2355 fps
Muzzle Energy: 1509 ft. lbs.
Thats not even 100 fps less then 7.62 x 39 for the same wieght bullets, I don't know how they test thier ammo. I do know bb test theres in actual guns, not test barrels.
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Does anyone know of a company that makes a light attachment for a Marlin mag tube?
One of these should work. I have previously seen the XS forearm rail in photos, if you call/email XS they should be able to give you some info.
http://www.tacstar.com/universal-barrel-mounts.php
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Like all of you, I found the program on Lever Action's for Self Defense to be very interesting. I have often thought that if AR's were to be outlawed, the lever gun would be a feasable alternative rifle for home defense. I have a Win. 30-30, a Marlin 1894 in .38 Spl/.357 Mag and a Marlin 1894 in .44 Spl/.44 Mag. The 30-30 is heavy on recoil, however, the Marlins are smooth and comfortable to shoot. With pistol calibers, the ammo is cheaper and one could use the lighter loads (38 Spl and 44 Spl) for practice. Inside a house, at short ranges, I think the .357 and .44 Mag would both work out. With respect to the railed handguard, one could fasten the add-on rails that are available for AR handguards to the sides and bottom of the lever gun forarm for the fastening of a light. For sights, upper rails which are fastened to the upper, would need to be used.
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I expected there to be SOMETHING about bullet selection and limitations due to the tube magazine, and then a plug for the LEVERevolution rounds.
Overload in CO
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I watched the lever gun self defense episode last night. What struck me the most was the incredibly unsafe gun handling of the "cowboy" guy. Did anyone notice that he was resting his hand over the muzzle of his rifle?? Not once, but twice!! I understand that the action was open, but nonetheless, I cannot believe that scene was not reshot.
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thanks ccd!
I did get a chance to finally watch the entire episode on DVR, and I have to say it is my favorite shooting gallery episode yet. I really like the idea of exploring the options for lever actions as home defense guns, and I would like to see more accessories specific to the lever gun.
I live in California and I don't have the option of an AR. I'm even worried about the mini-14 getting banned at this point. My lever actions look pretty good right now.
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You guys can experiment with you and your families safety with nostalgia, but with the advent of the automatic pistol, I'll stick with my Glock 20 with NS on my night stand...
To be numerically correct, my wife has a G-19 on her side... Now how would that look, if I had my 1894 Marlin on my side?
To be fair, I'll go watch the show, but I do remember seeing a similar show with lever actions for home defense. I was like, whattt - yea, I'm going to fight the taliban with a Carcano?
Just a warning; If you go tacti-cool with a lever action, you could open a worm hole, or black hole for the matter! Heed my warning...
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Saw the episode on the Tactical Lever Actions, I liked it, now I need to save for a LA in .38/.357 to go with my .38 revolver. Keep up the good work on the show, I like it when you present options other than the standard 1911/12 ga./AR for defense purposes.
Ronterry, it doesn't matter to the Anti's what is on the weapon, if it is not a single shot Flintlock, they are gonna try to ban it. Then they will go after that when nothing is left.
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Saw the episode on the Tactical Lever Actions, I liked it, now I need to save for a LA in .38/.357 to go with my .38 revolver. Keep up the good work on the show, I like it when you present options other than the standard 1911/12 ga./AR for defense purposes.
Ronterry, it doesn't matter to the Anti's what is on the weapon, if it is not a single shot Flintlock, they are gonna try to ban it. Then they will go after that when nothing is left.
They are already trying. In NY a while back Police received worried phone calls about a "possible terrorist" with a .50 Cal rifle. When they investigated it was found to be a Blackpowder muzzle loader. :(
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So I have one nagging question I have after watching the show. I get the bit about the simplicity for an inexperienced operator and the handiness of the slim profile in a rural patrol car, but why is it that Micheal Bane, who has several ARs and quite obviously knows a thing or two about how to run them, specifically keeps a '94 trapper at his bedside instead? The show doesn't seem to have addressed that point too specifically (not that I blame them for that--30 minutes is not nearly enough time to go into much detail).
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I really liked the show. Now if they only made one in 10mm to go with my G20 ;D does give me another reason for one more gun. :-\
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Gosh...I answered this on one thread, but for the life of me I can't remember which one! Well, it's probably worth answering again...
When you're choosing a home defense weapon, your choice must be dictated by the "lowest common denominator," that is, within reason, the weapon/s that are the most familiar to the least-trained member of the household. I know the manual of arms and stoppage drills for ARs and 1911s in my sleep, but my Sweetie doesn't. She is, however, an enthusiastic cowboy action shooter. She understands lever guns and double-barreled shotguns. So those guns are a part of our home defense armory. If she shot a '97, I'd have a '97 pump gun handy.
My point is I don't feel particularly undergunned with a .44 Magnum lever gun (now a Marlin 1894) and a double-barreled 12-gauge. I can run a lever gun with a bag of ammunition forever, with very little break in the cadence of fire. I can also run a double-barreled shotgun pretty quickly. My bedside pistol is a Sig 226 9mm with 20-round mags, a laser, night sights and and a mounted white light (SureFire). Her bedside gun is a DA revolver with a laser. Even if she defaults to her cowboy training and cocks the revolver, it still goes bang.
I sorta think we spend far too much time sweating a particular piece of hardware or load and not enough time figuring out lines of fire in our houses. If I thought I would be facing MS-13 tomorrow, believe me, I'd have a different battery (and some...interesting...friends staying over!). But I'm not. My whole world view on personal defense is based on realistic threat assessment and appropriate response, and within that context a lever gun, especially a .44 Magnum with at least 240-grain JHPs, is a proven product. If my Sweetie goes to a carbine class, then I'll consider an AR as a bedroom home defense gun.
And Jed, don't worry about the gun-handling. The gun was visibly empty and the action was visibly open. You're a new USPSA shooter and I will agree with you that the USPSA safety rules are the best in the world...after all, I helped develop and debug them. However, they are NOT universally accepted even in the mainstream shooting sports. Professional shotgunning, for instance — one of the sports the "cowboy guy" comes out of — draws a really clear line between an "unknown" gun and a gun with action open, proving that it is visibly empty. At shotgun matches you can buy a little plastic nub that laces into your sneakers to allow you to rest the barrel of the shotgun on your toe. I wouldn't do it, but I've filmed the Grand, where everyone does it. Generally, I let professionals do what they will as long as it's not demonstrably unsafe gun-handling. For instance, in addition to the shotgunners, military snipers do not and will not wear eye protection (and often not hearing protection). They're grown ups, and they do a scary job for a living.
Had the gun's action been closed, it wold have been a different matter.
Hope this clarifies the gun-handling issue.
Michael B
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You might have also clarified for Ronterry that the "experimentation" with Lever actions for home defense started about 150 years ago.
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This lever action episode was awesome! I never knew that the lever action rifle was so versatile.
I have a few questions:
What caliber was the host's lever action winchester?
What was the winchester model?
What price did he say he paid for? I could have sworn he said $100 brand new in box.
I would like to purchase a winchester lever action in a .40, .44 mag, or .45 how much would one of these average?
Thanks! Can't wait for the next show!
Take care
-Matt
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Matt...the gun in question is a .44 Magnum Winchester 1894 Trapper model that I bought New-In-Box for $100 cash at a gun show in Denver. Two reasons for the low price — .44 Magnum has never been a particularly popular caliber in the '94, which was designed around rifle-length cartridges like the 30-30. There's a lot of stuff on the Internet that the .44 Magnum cartridge is not reliable in the '94 action, but that has not been my experience with the Trapper, nor with the other .44 Magnum '94s I have owned and shot. Mt Trapper shoots both Magnum and .44 Special length cartridges painlessly.
The second reason the 16 1/2 inch Trapper can occasionally be found cheap is that the gun is not ideally suited for cowboy action shooting (CAS) competition — tube holds 9 rounds, either Magnum or Special, and CAS stages usually require 10 rounds and an empty chamber to start, so the '94 Trapper starts at a disadvantage (although I have shot it in a CAS match or two...so there). The '94 action is definitely longer and hader to throw than the rifle it replaced, the 1892 Winchester, which was designed for the pistol cartridges of the late 19th Century and now available in modern pistol cartridges, and not nearly as quick as the "race-modified" 1873 Winchester replicas that currently dominate CAS.
Since winchester went down a few years ago, prices of the '94s have soared...I have seen NIB Trapper .44s in the vicinity of a grand. I'd say you have a couple of options...haunt your local gunstores. Here in Colorado you can still stumble across used '94s at excellent prices because there are so darn many of the things out there. The second is to look at the zillions of 1892 clones out there. I have one of the Legacy/Puma .44 Magnum carbines, rebuilt by Steve Young, and it is a SWEET gun! Finally, there's plenty of Marlin '94s out there and they are excellent guns. That's what's in my bedroom now, since the Trapper has gotten a spec valuable...
Michael B
Michael B
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Matt...the gun in question is a .44 Magnum Winchester 1894 Trapper model that I bought New-In-Box for $100 cash at a gun show in Denver. Two reasons for the low price — .44 Magnum has never been a particularly popular caliber in the '94, which was designed around rifle-length cartridges like the 30-30. There's a lot of stuff on the Internet that the .44 Magnum cartridge is not reliable in the '94 action, but that has not been my experience with the Trapper, nor with the other .44 Magnum '94s I have owned and shot. Mt Trapper shoots both Magnum and .44 Special length cartridges painlessly.
The second reason the 16 1/2 inch Trapper can occasionally be found cheap is that the gun is not ideally suited for cowboy action shooting (CAS) competition — tube holds 9 rounds, either Magnum or Special, and CAS stages usually require 10 rounds and an empty chamber to start, so the '94 Trapper starts at a disadvantage (although I have shot it in a CAS match or two...so there). The '94 action is definitely longer and hader to throw than the rifle it replaced, the 1892 Winchester, which was designed for the pistol cartridges of the late 19th Century and now available in modern pistol cartridges, and not nearly as quick as the "race-modified" 1873 Winchester replicas that currently dominate CAS.
Since winchester went down a few years ago, prices of the '94s have soared...I have seen NIB Trapper .44s in the vicinity of a grand. I'd say you have a couple of options...haunt your local gunstores. Here in Colorado you can still stumble across used '94s at excellent prices because there are so darn many of the things out there. The second is to look at the zillions of 1892 clones out there. I have one of the Legacy/Puma .44 Magnum carbines, rebuilt by Steve Young, and it is a SWEET gun! Finally, there's plenty of Marlin '94s out there and they are excellent guns. That's what's in my bedroom now, since the Trapper has gotten a spec valuable...
Michael B
Michael B
Thank you very much for your wisdom on the lever action. I would prefer a lever action in a .44 mag. I don't do Cowboy Action Shooting so it appears the model you have would be great for me. What was that break down model that was shown on the show? And what kind of price range on that?
Thank you very much Michael! I'll have to keep my eyes open for one at the Gun and knife show on the 14th!
Take care
-Matt
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The 1892 Winchester breakdown models are from Chiappa in Italy and are distributed in the U.S. by Taylor Firearms and soem to Legacy Sports. They are, however, pricey...int he $1200 range. I have single-handedly badgered them into producing .44 Magnum models...
Michael B
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What is this nonsense about a .30-.30 kicking? That's what most 9-10 year old boys in the south start hunting with! Good gravy!
I'd like to see a tactical lever action from Wild West Guns or Jim Brockman though...50 Alaskan would be awesome.
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The 1892 Winchester breakdown models are from Chiappa in Italy and are distributed in the U.S. by Taylor Firearms and soem to Legacy Sports. They are, however, pricey...int he $1200 range. I have single-handedly badgered them into producing .44 Magnum models...
Michael B
Very cool Michael, I'll have to look into that but I definitely love that $100 price tag, I wish I could find a deal like that...... :(
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I think I've decided on a Puma 44 mag, I'm looking for the best all-around rifle for defense, going out to the range or back yard to shoot for a few hours. I think a 30-30 or high caliber rifle just wouldn't suit me because I can't hunt with a rifle. I saw the winchester trapper at the gun show yesterday, they had $775 on it but that was above their selling point so it was still above $500.
How much do Puma's and Marlin lever action .44 mags runs?
I really like the looks of the stainless Puma rifle, much easier to maintain.
Have you had any mishaps with your 44 mag Puma rifle?
Thanks
Take care
-Matt
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I have a Rossi Model 1892 Winchester Trapper Carbine with the big loop in .357 which I LOVE! And the same set up in .44 Mag. I see them around here used in the 3-350 range. If you find one, buy one. They are a handy little carbine, and fun as all get out to shoot.
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I think I've decided on a Puma 44 mag, I'm looking for the best all-around rifle for defense, going out to the range or back yard to shoot for a few hours. I think a 30-30 or high caliber rifle just wouldn't suit me because I can't hunt with a rifle. I saw the winchester trapper at the gun show yesterday, they had $775 on it but that was above their selling point so it was still above $500.
How much do Puma's and Marlin lever action .44 mags runs?
I really like the looks of the stainless Puma rifle, much easier to maintain.
Have you had any mishaps with your 44 mag Puma rifle?
Thanks
Take care
-Matt
Matt,
Prices vary quite a bit depending on location and availability so that's a hard question to really answer with any utility.
You might try googling the manufacturer, Legacy in this case (Puma is the brand), to get MSRP. You can also google "firearm auction sites" (there are 3-4 major ones that will come up near the top) and see what they and similar rifles are going for new and used. That can make it easier to get a general idea of the "street value" as opposed to retail. Just be aware that a lot of sellers seem to think their gun is made of gold no matter the condition or desireability.
Finally, visit your local stores and see what is on the shelf and what they can order for. I don't think I'm unique in having a "route" of my favorite spots that I drop in on monthly or so just to see what might have come in.
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If you're a cowboy action shooter, check out the SASS Classifieds (www.sassnet.com) or CAS City (cascity.com). '92 clones in .44 Magnum do float through from time to time. I strongly recommend a trip to Steve Young at Steve's Gunz (http://www.stevesgunz.com/), who is a master of the 1892 at amazingly affordable prices.
There's a bunch of 1892s out there...the cream of the current crop are the ones from Cimarron (http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/) or Taylors (http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/products/cfTaylors92Collection.tpl).
I have one from Legacy in .44 Mag that I've used in Wild Bunch matches (http://www.legacysports.com/products/puma/puma_m92m86.html). It's sweet..especially since Steve Young got rid of that Rube Goldberg "safety" on the bolt and slicked it up.
I've also got one of the old Navy Arms' Pumas in .357 that is an excellent rifle...again, it's been to Steve's Gunz.
Davidson's had Winchester do a run of '92s, but I think they're all gone: http://www.galleryofguns.com/Genie/Default.aspx?item=534162124&mfg=Winchester&mdl=1892&cat=2&type=Rifle&cal=All&fin=Blue&sit=All
Also, watch for the Browning 1892s (here's a sold example from GunsAmerica: http://www.gunsamerica.com/993126011/Guns/Rifles/Browning-Rifles/Lever-Action/Browning_Mdl_92_44_Mag.htm0)...they are SUPERB guns!
Michael B
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How are all great poeple doing?
Sorry I have been sick and away from my laptop. But I'm back with a smile and alot of quiestions.
I,m really haveing a hard time makeing my mind up on a good old 870rem or a leavr gun. And if I get a leavr, what cal should I go with? I like the 30-30 just fine.But it's just not my fave.Now I saw some cowboy shooters running 44mag.Now I like that consept, but I like that cowgirl and champ, Jess better. So sorry to say I wasn't paying to much mind on the range of that one. The other cal. I'M given alot of thought about, is my 45-70. See this will be for home and very long stents in the woods .Please help, I fear I have over thought this one. Ow when you have time check out ,The 9/12Prodject.com It's like minded people talking and fighting for our rights to keep and bare aarms.
THANK YOU ALL!!!
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Ooops,
I forgot to ask. I have made my mind up on a Marlin if I go leaver, But what are the pros & cons to the strait stock like the cowboy to the 336. I've only shot a 336 Marlin and that was my 45-70.
Thanks
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Ok now I'm going to go with the marlin 1894, in 44mag. If that can't kill an elk at 100 yards, then I'll have to go back to redhalk.
But I would like to know whats is The Ballord-type rifling, and how dose it rate to the micro-groove I'm use to?
Thank you!
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Ballard-type rifling is supposedly better at handling cast bullets than the Micro-Groove rifling, although my understanding is that it is less a function of rifling and more of oversized groove diameter on the Micro-Groove guns. The 1894 Marlin is a great gun...I have one as my "bedroom gun" loaded with 240-gr Black Hills JHP and I believe it will deliver the mail. I have also shot it in cowboy matches with .44 Special cowboy loads and it worked fine with those as well.
If I was going after elk I would be looking at either Keith-style 250-gr bullets cast very hard and cranked up to at least 1300 fps or the factory heavy-duty 240-270-gr .44 Mags from Buffalo Bore or Corbon Hunter:
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=6
https://www.dakotaammo.net/shop/index.php?cPath=22_86&osCsid=d8af6433ace7441ee2ed878e58eb10da
Michael B
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Aren't you afraid of overpenetration w/ a 44 mag carbine, or do you have enough empty space around your house not to put the neighbors at risk?
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My house is cut into a hill, and all the lines of fire end up in the dirt rather than a neighbor's house. Secondly, house gun is loaded with 240-gr JHP antipersonnel rounds, which are not as penetrative as the hunting loads...btw, when hiking yesterday and saw lots and lots o fresh bear sign, so I reloaded Thumper — my aging Ruger Super Blackhawk .44 Magnum trail gun that I've been carrying in the woods lately — from 200-gr .44 Special CorBon to 275-gr Winchester Platinum Partition hunting loads. One never knows, does one?
Michael B
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Does Marlin's stainless 1894 .44 Magnum have the Ballard rifling?
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http://www.rossiusa.com/2009catalog/?catalog_page=6
Just saw these yesterday. :D
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CJ,
They don't list any lever guns on their site. Rossi used to be the MFG for Puma (Legasy Sports) but the Puma is now made by Citori (sp) and have gone WAY up in price.
If you know where a Rossi is being sold please let me know so I can look at the price.
Thanks
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CJ,
They don't list any lever guns on their site. Rossi used to be the MFG for Puma (Legasy Sports) but the Puma is now made by Citori (sp) and have gone WAY up in price.
If you know where a Rossi is being sold please let me know so I can look at the price.
Thanks
Haz, I have the Taurus catalog and they sent a Rossi catalog also. ???
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They are being brought in by Taurus apparently or whoever it is bringing in Taurus is bringing in Rossi. If you look at the contact information on http://www.taurususa.com/ and http://www.rossiusa.com/ the address is the same.
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Taurus owns Rossi I believe.
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Just went to the Taurus site and the only levers are .22 and they are discontinued.
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I thought I read an article that Taurus bought Rossi? ??? I am sure I saw or heard this in the last 6 months.
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I thought I read an article that Taurus bought Rossi? ??? I am sure I saw or heard this in the last 6 months.
Yep. Taurus aquired mfg and distributing from Rossi last November.
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For some reason if you click on "rifles" on the Rossi site, you get only the single shots. Click on "catalog," then go to p. 7 to find the M-92 levers. No suggested retail prices listed, but most Wal Marts carry Rossi.
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Just watched this episode again and it is congruous to another thread being discussed recently, so it was cool that it came on again tonight. Great info on lever-guns as defensive tools.
Also, it's 'Pythagorean theorem'................ ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_theorem
;D ;D ;D