The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: Timothy on August 05, 2017, 06:55:49 PM
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Anyone know anything about Liberty?
Their loading cartridges with 50 gr bullets pushing 1500 fps using a fragmenting solid copper bullet in a variety of calibers.
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I've put 50-60 rounds of it downrange in a couple of 9MM's. They all performed well. The point of impact shifted a bit and they did not group as well as my normal ammo (Hornady Critical Defense or Corbon DPX).
HOWEVER, my carry pieces are notably lighter. The LC9 resides far more easily in the pocket now and the SR-9 or M&P 9 carry IWB much lighter.
So...expensive but I'm sold on it for carry ammo. I hope the bad guys don't catch on because the frangible can't easily be tied back to a barrel.
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I know nothing of loading but basic physics tells me that a lighter bullet needs more powder to attain the pressure to push the smaller mass downrange! How can the cartridges be so light and not weigh close to std ammo weights?
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9MM is a 50 grain bullet vs. a 115 or 124 grain bullet.
I doubt there is any meaningful difference in weight due to powder.
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So, what is the weight of powder from std 9mm vs this bullet @ 50gr?
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I dunno. I just know the whole dang thing is noticeably lighter.
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bullet and propellant weight is measured in grains... there are 7000 grains in a pound
the amount of energy in a propellant is controlled by several methods
most smokeless propellants are nitrogen compounds containing ... nitrocellulose.... nitroglycerine... nitroguanidine and referred to as single, double, and triple based propellants, depending on the relative mix of the three
burn rate is controlled by shape,.... flake,.... spherical,... extruded (sticks) as well as any burn rate reducing coatings like graphite
typically target loads on a commercial level are light charges of "fast" burning powders to make the cartridge economical to produce... while "magnum" loads are large volumes of "slow" burning powders, typically needing a primer of high initial energy
a particular volume of propellant will produce a certain volume of gas with which to propel the bullet...more volume (weight) of powder equals faster bullet... but since the breech end of the open barrel is only sealed off by the expansion of the cartridge case there are pressure limits...blow back actions and locked breech actions have different safe levels... bullet weight and charge weight by propellant manufacturers are listed in reloading manuals and are keyed to the max recommended pressure
I use Winchester Super Field which is a medium burn rate shotgun propellant for 9mm.... a 3.6 grain load behind a 135 grain polymer coated cast bullet gives me about 1080 fps out of a 16" AR 9mm carbine... the same load out of a Glock 34 is about 950fps...
regards Les
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Thanks Les!
That pretty much tells me that the weight of the propellant is rather insignificant in the overall weight of the cartridge.
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Timothy... my .44mag loads from metallic silhouette would give you slightly different ratio of comparison against smaller auto loading pistol cartridges... my .44 mag load was 24grains of propellant for a 245 grain cast lead bullet... I don't have a bullet puller at the house, but my guess is that a factory 115 grain 9mm would have no more than 6 grains of propellant...
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Given the lighter mass, how many grains of powder would be required to push the 50 gr bullet to 1500 fps? It's not much weight but lessen each cartridge by 3-4 grams x 10-15 rounds would save 1 to 1-1/2 oz per magazine?
It won't matter much in my snubbie but a 75 gr bullet in .45 ACP or 45 Colt would save several oz per mag.
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By using 165 grain bullets in .45 ACP rather than 230 grains I have a weight savings of 65 grains per bullet. Times that by 14 rounds per mag and the difference is 910 grains minus whatever extra amount of powder is used. I didn't calculate it exactly but if I'm not mistaken that would be about 1/4 pound difference per mag. 75 grains per bullet would be a huge difference from that.
ETA: I grabbed my calculator and came up with 1,240 grains less bullet weight in an 8-round mag with 75 grain bullets vs. 230 grain. I think that's about 5.5 ounces.
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1240 grains is about 3 ounces...
1oz is 437.5 grains
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don't overlook the weight of lead needed to produce a bullet that would completely fill the bore's circumference.... it was my perception when I was fooling with cast bullets, that bullets that had a bearing surface (bullet length) less than the diameter of the bore would not fly straight....that is why I shoot heavier bullets in my 9mm, though some 155 grain .45 bullets left "cookie cutter" holes in targets
super velocity bullets like the KTW bronze projectiles were turned out of less dense elements than lead... you still need to penetrate, and f=ma
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1240 grains is about 3 ounces...
1oz is 437.5 grains
Thanks Timothy. For some unknown reason I was thinking a 230 grain bullet was a little over an ounce. I knew it was just over a half ounce but I had a brain fart so everything I thought I had figured out was wrong.
My full size Para with a 15 round magazine loaded with 230 grain bullets and one in the chamber would be just over a half pound of lead if I'm not screwing things up again. (15+1)x1/2. Add to that the weight of the brass and powder and it's even more. When I bought the 13+1 frame kit they said the alloy frame with 14 rounds is supposed to weigh the same as a steel frame and 8 rounds.
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Liberty ammo makes the carry of a full size gun much nicer. It's accurate enough for me and I'm not too worried about penetration. I like the frangible aspect.
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My 9mm only has 8 round mags, limited to ten by law unless pre-94. Won't make a big difference but the speed and frangible characteristics are interesting.
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250 ft/lbs of ME from a standard pressure .380 sounds like a winner to me. The muzzle energy of all the loads I looked at was quite a bit higher than typical ammo. I bet it would kick butt out of a carbine too. One of my local gun dealers sells Liberty ammo. I should pick some up the next time I'm on that side of town.
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I don't see a big energy difference in .38 from the Hornady +p stuff I carry. The 9mm is quite a bit higher.
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I was looking at calibers I'm most likely to use, .380 ACP and .45 ACP, and they look good. Out of curiosity I checked out 10mm which has some impressive numbers. I didn't even look at the .38 Special until now and it has the same exact ballistics as the .380. I wonder if it's a misprint? The .38 is standard pressure but still seems kind of weak. If they made it in +P it would probably have more energy than other +P ammo.
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I just saw yesterday where Liberty is making 100 grain 30-06 ammo. The muzzle velocity speed on it is 3,500 fps. That's smokin' hot.
On sale for $29 here: http://palmettostatearmory.com/animal-instinct-30-06-springfield-100gr-hp-ammunition-la-ha-c-30-06-042.html (http://palmettostatearmory.com/animal-instinct-30-06-springfield-100gr-hp-ammunition-la-ha-c-30-06-042.html)
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I'm leery because of the light weight bullets.
Marketing for Liberty is emphasizing Energy which is Mass * Velocity(squared). Heavy on the velocity. Liberty and others score high in this department.
But Momentum is just Mass * Velocity. The the increase in velocity of light weight bullets just doesn't make up for the loss of mass. They've got a lot of energy but can it carry on through and into the target?
I'm just old school and will stick with a good balance between the two that lead core ammo delivers.
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I haven't shot any but the 100 grain 30-06 ammo should handily take a whitetail. 243's do it with less than 100 grains all the time. So, with fragmenting hollow point I suspect it will do a good job...however I don't like picking metal out of meat.
As far as accuracy...I dunno. They claim 1 MOA at 500 yards but that will depend on the barrel I'm sure. I would like to get some of the ammo for 30-06 but it would be stacked on top of other ammo I'd like to try.
I was hoping someone here could cue us on the 30-06 ammo. The 9MM ammo I've shot runs great...POI shift but more than accurate enough for defensive pistol ammo.
https://libertyammo.com/product/animal-instinct-30-06-springfield/ (https://libertyammo.com/product/animal-instinct-30-06-springfield/)
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That .30-06 ammo is $3.25 a pop at Liberty Ammo's website but only $1.45 a round at the PSA website. That's a lot more reasonable but I don't think a fragmenting bullet is the best type for hunting.
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That .30-06 ammo is $3.25 a pop at Liberty Ammo's website but only $1.45 a round at the PSA website. That's a lot more reasonable but I don't think a fragmenting bullet is the best type for hunting.
Me either.
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When I think of fragmenting rifle bullets I think of exploding varmints. Wouldn't a bullet like that just blow a hole in a deer without penetrating?
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When I think of fragmenting rifle bullets I think of exploding varmints. Wouldn't a bullet like that just blow a hole in a deer without penetrating?
I would think that was a possibility, if it hit bone like a shoulder or rib. It might be possible, maybe even probable, to blow apart into fragments that never make it to vital organs and thus fail to incapacitate the animal. The animal might die later of gangrene.
A few years ago our younger son killed a buck that was on its way to dying on its own from a previous superficial wound. He said it was moving slower than normal and acting different than deer act. Upon examination it looked to us like a combination of poor shot placement and poor bullet selection that caused damage to soft tissue but not to any organs. Apparently infection had set in and that led to blood poisoning and gangrene.
When we cut into it to field dress the animal, the meat was basically rotten and unusable. The game warden said the old wound was probably no more than a week or so old.