The Down Range Forum

Member Section => NFA Items => Topic started by: billt on May 18, 2017, 07:31:06 AM

Title: 14" Barreled Mossberg "Shockwave" Shotgun ???
Post by: billt on May 18, 2017, 07:31:06 AM
What I want to know is how this thing becomes a non NFA weapon, and can be sold like any other shotgun, in spite of the fact it has a 14" barrel? The only thing different on it, is it has some kind of goofy looking club grip on it, instead of the usual pistol grip. (Which looks much more controllable than what they've put on this thing). How does a change in grip alone knock it off the NFA list with a 14" barrel? They both have "pistol grips" on them. Remington has done the same thing with the 870. I forget what name they've tagged theirs with.
Title: Re: 14" Barreled Mossberg "Shockwave" Shotgun ???
Post by: tombogan03884 on May 18, 2017, 07:50:53 AM
Just like a 10 inch AR.
It's built originally   as a pistol.
Just like a Taurus Judge.
Title: Re: 14" Barreled Mossberg "Shockwave" Shotgun ???
Post by: billt on May 18, 2017, 08:16:47 AM
Just like a 10 inch AR.
It's built originally   as a pistol.
Just like a Taurus Judge.

So... You could take it to a gunsmith, and have the barrel cut to ANY length you wanted? Say just ahead of the magazine screw cap, like a Serbu, "Super Shorty"? If I'm not mistaken those require a "AOW", (Any Other Weapon), registration. These do not. Why would these be any different? They're both "pistols". The legality of this gets dangerously confusing when you go under 18". That, along with the fact the ATF seems to change it's mind on this type of stuff every 15 minutes.
Title: Re: 14" Barreled Mossberg "Shockwave" Shotgun ???
Post by: tombogan03884 on May 18, 2017, 01:30:09 PM
No. You have to manufacture a new reciever with a serial number listed as PISTOL through the entire process, and it can never have a shoulder stock installed, just like the Thompson Center Contender and Encore 45/410's.
10-14 inch 410 barrel, pistol grip is OK, undo one screw and replace it with the carbine stock is a federal crime.
Title: Re: 14" Barreled Mossberg "Shockwave" Shotgun ???
Post by: Big Frank on May 18, 2017, 03:30:40 PM
The Mossberg 590 Shockwave and Remington Model 870 Tac-14 are considered firearms due to the 26 inch plus a fraction overall length they have with the Raptor pistol grip. They are NOT pistols. You can NOT shorten the barrel. You can NOT put a regular pistol grip on it that shortens the overall length. Just about anything you might want to do to it converts it from a firearm to an AOW.

ETA: If these things were pistols you could change the grips and shorten the barrels but there's no such thing as a 12 gauge pistol in the US. I believe .50 caliber is the biggest you can get in a pistol.

http://www.mossberg.com/category/series/590-shockwave/

https://www.remington.com/shotguns/pump-action/model-870/model-870-tac-14
Title: Re: 14" Barreled Mossberg "Shockwave" Shotgun ???
Post by: tombogan03884 on May 19, 2017, 06:13:48 AM
Shotguns are exempted from the 50 cal max .
Otherwise all 12 gages would be illegal.
and there is at least one 12 g pistol made by Olin for boaters.
Title: Re: 14" Barreled Mossberg "Shockwave" Shotgun ???
Post by: billt on May 19, 2017, 07:17:18 AM
The Mossberg 590 Shockwave and Remington Model 870 Tac-14 are considered firearms due to the 26 inch plus a fraction overall length they have with the Raptor pistol grip. They are NOT pistols. You can NOT shorten the barrel. You can NOT put a regular pistol grip on it that shortens the overall length. Just about anything you might want to do to it converts it from a firearm to an AOW.

ETA: If these things were pistols you could change the grips and shorten the barrels but there's no such thing as a 12 gauge pistol in the US. I believe .50 caliber is the biggest you can get in a pistol.

http://www.mossberg.com/category/series/590-shockwave/

https://www.remington.com/shotguns/pump-action/model-870/model-870-tac-14

So..... It has to be built without a shoulder stock from the factory, and the overall length has to be 26"+. So theoretically they could add 2" of length to the grip, and remove another 2" from the barrel. Thereby shortening the barrel to 12", and it would be just as legal? This is all so full of stupid.
Title: Re: 14" Barreled Mossberg "Shockwave" Shotgun ???
Post by: crusader rabbit on May 19, 2017, 07:42:22 AM
So..... It has to be built without a shoulder stock from the factory, and the overall length has to be 26"+. So theoretically they could add 2" of length to the grip, and remove another 2" from the barrel. Thereby shortening the barrel to 12", and it would be just as legal? This is all so full of stupid.

But, aren't MOST gun laws?

Crusader Rabbit
Title: Re: 14" Barreled Mossberg "Shockwave" Shotgun ???
Post by: Big Frank on May 19, 2017, 02:42:14 PM
Shotguns are exempted from the 50 cal max .
Otherwise all 12 gages would be illegal.
and there is at least one 12 g pistol made by Olin for boaters.

Shotguns can be bigger than .50 caliber but like I said pistols can't be and these aren't pistols. And legally speaking 12 gauge flare-guns aren't pistols either. They aren't guns at all in the eyes of the law and that puts them in the same category as paintball guns. They're both non-guns. Capisce?
Title: Re: 14" Barreled Mossberg "Shockwave" Shotgun ???
Post by: tombogan03884 on May 19, 2017, 02:55:20 PM
drop a 00 in one and tell me that ain't a f....k pistol . Capisce.
Title: Re: 14" Barreled Mossberg "Shockwave" Shotgun ???
Post by: Big Frank on May 19, 2017, 02:55:49 PM
So..... It has to be built without a shoulder stock from the factory, and the overall length has to be 26"+. So theoretically they could add 2" of length to the grip, and remove another 2" from the barrel. Thereby shortening the barrel to 12", and it would be just as legal? This is all so full of stupid.

To legally be a shotgun the definition that I always heard and read was that the barrel has to be at least 18" and the overall length has to be at least 26". That was straight from the ATF. Since the barrels on these are less than 18" they aren't shotguns but are somehow considered firearms. I don't get it. They aren't shotguns, pistols, or AOWs, but they're firearms. If that makes sense to anyone please explain it to the rest of us.

In Michigan you need a pistol permit to own a rifle or shotgun that's less than 30" overall. I have a pistol permit for my Ruger 10/22 with a folding stock because it's less than 30" with the stock folded. I'd probably need a pistol permit for one of these guns if they're even legal here. I had a pistol permit for a shotgun before and it was just barely over 26" with the barrel being a fraction over 18". If I shortened the barrel or grip it would have been an unregistered sawed off shotgun. How these can legally be firearms has something to do with them not being full length shotguns that were cut down at at a later date.
Title: Re: 14" Barreled Mossberg "Shockwave" Shotgun ???
Post by: Big Frank on May 19, 2017, 02:59:56 PM
drop a 00 in one and tell me that ain't a f....k pistol . Capisce.

How about you do it then come back here and tell us how well it turns out when you fire 12 gauge buckshot out of a flimsy piece of plastic?
Title: Re: 14" Barreled Mossberg "Shockwave" Shotgun ???
Post by: billt on May 22, 2017, 11:18:30 AM
I just wish they hadn't put that stupid strap on the forend. It makes the whole thing look like it was put together by a gang banger on a card table.
Title: Re: 14" Barreled Mossberg "Shockwave" Shotgun ???
Post by: billt on May 22, 2017, 11:21:52 AM
Here is Hickok and his son running a bunch of different ammo through 3 of them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxECBq-f68s&t=1344s
Title: Re: 14" Barreled Mossberg "Shockwave" Shotgun ???
Post by: billt on June 13, 2017, 07:30:41 PM
No. You have to manufacture a new reciever with a serial number listed as PISTOL through the entire process, and it can never have a shoulder stock installed, just like the Thompson Center Contender and Encore 45/410's.
10-14 inch 410 barrel, pistol grip is OK, undo one screw and replace it with the carbine stock is a federal crime.

This stuff is all so insanely stupid. We have shotshells for all calibers, and sabot rifled barrels for shotguns. What's the difference between a 45 Colt shotshell and a .410? Or a .45 Colt shotshell out of a Ruger Blackhawk with a rifled barrel, or a .410 shotshell out of a smoothbore shotgun? They are both centerfire shotshell cartridges. Both possess the same lethality.
Title: Re: 14" Barreled Mossberg "Shockwave" Shotgun ???
Post by: Big Frank on June 13, 2017, 07:48:19 PM
The Shockwave and TAC-14 aren't pistols so I doubt the receivers' serial numbers are ever listed as pistols. Especially since 12 gauge pistols would be considered AOWs. I don't think you can turn an AOW into a normal legal firearm but I'm not sure about that. I never heard of anyone doing it. If an AOW was made into a regular firearm I don't think after it was registered as such that you could turn it back into an AOW again. I have to agree with you Bill that this stuff is stupid to the point of being insane.
Title: Re: 14" Barreled Mossberg "Shockwave" Shotgun ???
Post by: PegLeg45 on June 14, 2017, 02:35:59 PM
I have to agree with you Bill that this stuff is stupid to the point of being insane.

Indeed.

Leave it to the gubmint/BATFE....they really know how to put the "dic" in ridiculous.  ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: 14" Barreled Mossberg "Shockwave" Shotgun ???
Post by: Big Frank on June 14, 2017, 07:13:32 PM
Indeed.

Leave it to the gubmint/BATFE....they really know how to put the "dic" in ridiculous.  ;D ;D ;D ;D

You got that right.
Title: Re: 14" Barreled Mossberg "Shockwave" Shotgun ???
Post by: Big Frank on September 24, 2017, 11:42:13 AM
Nighthawk Custom makes their own version of a 12 gauge firearm called the Tomahawk. I think it's the best looking one of the bunch. It's the same overall length as the other 2 but has a 16" barrel and a normal looking Hogue pistol grip. It has 5+1 capacity, one more than the Model 870 Tac-14. The 590 Shockwave is the same size as the Model 870 Tac-14 but it's a 6 shot like the Tomahawk. http://www.nighthawkcustom.com/tomahawk
Title: Re: 14" Barreled Mossberg "Shockwave" Shotgun ???
Post by: Big Frank on September 29, 2017, 03:31:21 PM
That Tomahawk sure looks good but I'm not spending $1,395 of my hard earned cash for one. In Michigan I would need to register it as a pistol because it's under 30" long. I guess anyone with a Concealed Pistol License could carry it concealed anywhere in the state they can carry an actual pistol. If someone tried to rob you and you whipped that out you probably wouldn't even need to fire a shot to scare the $h!t out of them. As a bonus, the police could follow the trail of $h!t and catch them, not red-handed, but brown-pantsed.
Title: Re: 14" Barreled Mossberg "Shockwave" Shotgun ???
Post by: alfsauve on September 29, 2017, 04:52:01 PM
And on a side note, if you're into building ARs, you should have a short barrel and pistol recoil tube handy.  When you buy a receiver have them mark it as "other" on the paperwork.   Then go home and build it out as a pistol.  Take a picture.  Write it in your journal, s/n blah blah PISTOL.  Then take it apart and build whatever rifle you want.

BECAUSE IT WAS FIRST BUILT OUT AS A PISTOL, then converted to a rifle, you can convert it back to a pistol all legal like.

If you sell it make sure you put it in writing, and enclose a picture, that it was first a pistol.
Title: Re: 14" Barreled Mossberg "Shockwave" Shotgun ???
Post by: Big Frank on October 02, 2017, 02:00:13 PM
In the wee hours of the morning I was reading about the Mossberg 590 Shockwave in the October 2017 issue of the American Rifleman magazine. A letter from the chief, firearms technology industry services branch of the BATFE to Mossberg said, "The weapon [Shockwave] . . . is a 'firearm' as defined by the NFA [National Firearms Act]." He also said, "Please note that if the subject firearm is concealed on a person the classification with regard to the NFA may change," and "If the design, dimensions, configuration, method of operation or materials were changed [from the sample submitted], our determinations would be subject to review."

So it can't be modified in any way I can think of except to add a sling, light, sidesaddle shell carrier, etc., but you can't change the grip or barrel. IF it's legal to own here in Michigan it would have to be registered as a pistol, but if it was concealed, with or without a CPL, it would be considered something else, like an AOW. Is there anyone who's not confused about this whole category of firearms yet?   ???
Title: Re: 14" Barreled Mossberg "Shockwave" Shotgun ???
Post by: Big Frank on October 25, 2017, 02:57:10 PM
Mossberg has just come out with a 20 gauge Shockwave. The recoil should be more manageable than the 12 gauge. I have lots of ammo in both gauges but would probably go with the 12 gauge if I ever bought one. But I'll most likely never buy one anyway so it doesn't matter what gauge it is.