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Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: rojawe on January 03, 2013, 05:35:32 AM

Title: Warning on using E85 Fuels in Older Cars
Post by: rojawe on January 03, 2013, 05:35:32 AM
http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/2000862202001/
Title: Re: Warning on using E85 Fuels in Older Cars
Post by: wtr100 on January 03, 2013, 06:02:54 AM
http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/2000862202001/

horse feathers - Brazil went to an E50 I believe their vehicles didn't grind to a halt 
Title: Re: Warning on using E85 Fuels in Older Cars
Post by: crusader rabbit on January 03, 2013, 07:30:46 AM
Aside from the very real physical damage caused to older engines by this crap, there is a moral component as well.  (Ask Deepwater what this ethanol crap did to the fuel system of his beautifully restored motorcycle.)

It is (IMNSHO) immoral to run your pick-up truck on food when so many are hungry.

Corn-based ethanol has increased the prices of everything from tortillas (a staple for poor Mexicans) to rib-eyes (something I can only lust after).  Pork prices have increased.  Chicken prices have increased.  Even the price of vegetables has increased because farmers can get better subsidies by growing corn.

Like so many things forced upon us by big government, this is simply wrong.

If we were to follow the Brazilian model, we'd be making this out of sugar cane.  It's more production efficient.  Cane is less costly than corn.  And it might just take some sugar out of the market, thus saving teeth today, and the cost of diabetes treatment down the road.

Crusader
Title: Re: Warning on using E85 Fuels in Older Cars
Post by: Jrlobo on January 03, 2013, 08:17:59 AM
There is good reason why car manufacturers warn about using E85 in car engines not designed for it...it damages engines and fuel systems. E85 is like lipitor: Don't take if (and the list goes on for a mile). There are plenty of warnings for small engines, like lawn mowers, string trimmers and small tractors, that use of any fuel containing ethanol at 10% or 15% levels causes fuel problems and abnormal wear. I drove E85 company cars that dictated use of E85 where possible (mandatory if fill up was to occur within 20 miles of an E85 pump) and scratched my head over it. For one, fuel was more expensive and for two, gas mileage was cut in half. Almost ran out of gas on a long trip on my first attempt with one. I won't be so harsh as to suggest that if someone thinks that Brazil has the answer then they ought to move there, but I will suggest that you study Brazil a little more closely before we all start having to plant sugar can in our back yards!
Title: Re: Warning on using E85 Fuels in Older Cars
Post by: santahog on January 05, 2013, 06:23:37 PM
Aside from the very real physical damage caused to older engines by this crap, there is a moral component as well.  (Ask Deepwater what this ethanol crap did to the fuel system of his beautifully restored motorcycle.)

It is (IMNSHO) immoral to run your pick-up truck on food when so many are hungry.

Corn-based ethanol has increased the prices of everything from tortillas (a staple for poor Mexicans) to rib-eyes (something I can only lust after).  Pork prices have increased.  Chicken prices have increased.  Even the price of vegetables has increased because farmers can get better subsidies by growing corn.

Like so many things forced upon us by big government, this is simply wrong.

If we were to follow the Brazilian model, we'd be making this out of sugar cane.  It's more production efficient.  Cane is less costly than corn.  And it might just take some sugar out of the market, thus saving teeth today, and the cost of diabetes treatment down the road.

Crusader

BUBBA, YOU ARE SINGING MY SONG!!!!!
There is more rank hypocrisy in that policy than the dolts that signed onto it could absorb in a gallon of moonshine at a Baptist church social.. (Or Deacons meeting at Hooters.., and I've seen both..)
Title: Re: Warning on using E85 Fuels in Older Cars
Post by: MikeBjerum on January 05, 2013, 08:47:04 PM
I am so F'n sick and tired of this anti-ethanol crap!

There is nothing wrong with ethanol as a fuel!  It isn't the best solution, but if our idiot government hadn't held pricing below true production costs in the 1980's and 90's farmers would not have developed a profitable market for their produce.  Now that the toothpaste is out of the tube, and I don't know who is going to put it back in.
Title: Re: Warning on using E85 Fuels in Older Cars
Post by: warhawke on January 06, 2013, 03:30:45 PM
Number 1, ethanol is a SOLVENT! and a damn good one.
Number 2, Brazil grows 3 crops of sugarcane a year and STILL has to subsidize production.
Number 3, ethanol requires more energy to produce than it yields. 

The only reason we use it is because certain vested interests have refused to allow diesel fuel (and biodiesel) to gain widespread acceptance in this country.
Title: Re: Warning on using E85 Fuels in Older Cars
Post by: MikeBjerum on January 07, 2013, 10:43:48 AM
Number 1, ethanol is a SOLVENT! and a damn good one.
Number 2, Brazil grows 3 crops of sugarcane a year and STILL has to subsidize production.
Number 3, ethanol requires more energy to produce than it yields. 

The only reason we use it is because certain vested interests have refused to allow diesel fuel (and biodiesel) to gain widespread acceptance in this country.

Number 1, and it is also a very potent fuel
Number 2, we subsidize every energy source in this nation in one way or another.  Even evil coal and nuclear are both penalized and subsidized.  It is called buying your elected seat!
Number 3, Only if you honestly believe that the only use for the grain is the ethanol.  The production of ethanol from grain has a net gain in energy, and the bi-products have value.  Dried Distiller's Grain has a higher food value than raw #2 corn.

As I said earlier, if this nation would have allowed farmers to make money on their crops as food they would not have found a profitable way to market them.  When we were raising 100 bu per acre corn we were putting it in piles on the ground and watching large percentages rot away.  The farmer was getting $1.00 per bushel on the market, and for the bushels with subsidies they could get as high as $1.35.  Today we are raising 75% more, and there are no price payments from the government.  However, even with the increased usage and export we still can't build storage fast enough to keep up with the increased production and lose to decay.

Perhaps we need to try a new experiment in this nation:  Quit micromanaging everything!  Let the market forces work!
Title: Re: Warning on using E85 Fuels in Older Cars
Post by: Jrlobo on January 07, 2013, 11:29:51 AM
Okay. How many of you proponents of the E85 own E85 capable vehicles? And, then, how many of you actually pay for E85 fuel? How many of you experience better mileage with E85 than you do with straight gas (no ethanol)? All this to-ing and fro-ing re ethanol is meaningless. What counts is results. I, for one, have already done the E85 experiment and found it wanting, even against 10% ethanol fuels! I grow corn in my backyard...to eat. I bet some of you folks use E85 to clean your AR's...
Title: Re: Warning on using E85 Fuels in Older Cars
Post by: PegLeg45 on January 07, 2013, 01:44:55 PM
Actually, both M85 and Jrlobo are right in certain areas.

Ethanol fuel is a great fuel, and very potent (due to the higher inherent octane rating) than standard fuel....IF you use it in an engine that has been tuned to maximize the potential. It is a terrific racing fuel if the timing curve and carb/EFI has been jetted for the extra flow rate needed because it takes more volume. It also burns cleaner.
You can find a happy tuning medium, which is what the E85 Flex Fuel car and truck engines are designed do.

My truck has the GM 5.3L engine that (even though not marked for it, certain year models of 5.3's will all run Flex Fuel) will run on E85..... but I do not because of the mileage the engine has on it. Like others have said, running E85 in a system that is older and has not had it in there will cause problems for the system due to the cleansing properties of the ethanol.


When we first got local access to E85, I tried it..... and Like Jrlobo, found it to be lacking.

From my own actual experience via my 2003 Silverado with 5.3L Vortec (also with Hypertech tuning system) I have found:
1- E85
   A) Ain't all it is cracked up to be in a street vehicle.
   B) Causes erratic engine idle.
   C) Gets about 15% less mileage than E10 (standard) fuel.
   D) Costs about $0.20 per gallon less than E10, but that value is lost in the lower mileage per gallon.

2-Non-Ethanol gasoline
   A) Makes my truck run like a top
   B) Smooth engine idle and good power range
   C) Gets as good mileage as standard E10
   D) Costs an average of about $0.20 per gallon more than standard E10

3- Standard E10 (10% ethanol)
   A) Best all-around choice for what is available due to mileage vs cost vs performance

This is my experience with both my vehicles.
(my son got the same results with both his 2000 Silverado 4x4 and his 2010 Nissan Titan)

YMMV
Title: Re: Warning on using E85 Fuels in Older Cars
Post by: MikeBjerum on January 07, 2013, 01:52:17 PM
I have owned E85 vehicles, our two current ones aren't because when you buy used you take what you can get, and I did run E85 based on price.  Industry states a 15% reduction in economy, so you want to pay 15% less for the fuel.  Typical actual numbers found is Chrysler does drop 15%, Ford and GM will drop 7%.  It is true that you get fewer miles on a tank, but you also spend less per mile on that tank.

With blender pumps I have run 15% in the pickup with no notable change in mileage.  Pure gas does get about 5% better in the pickup and 10% better in the bike than 10%.  I blended the 15% to see what I could expect when it is mandated, and since not every state mandates the blend at all I have tried the ethanol free when it is there.

The most important thing is to pick a blend and stick with it.  It takes a couple tanks for the computer to adjust to the oxygen levels, so drivability suffers for a period with each change.

My biggest issue on this whole debate is exactly the same as the pro vs. anti gun debate:  Use facts, and quit twisting the truth to meet your wishes!
Title: Re: Warning on using E85 Fuels in Older Cars
Post by: MikeBjerum on January 07, 2013, 01:56:22 PM
Peg -

The only difference between a flex fuel engine and a standard engine, actually vehicle, is the fuel pump and the injectors.  In most cases replacement fuel pumps are all flex fuel and sometimes the injectors are as well, but regardless you can put the flex fuel components in your vehicle with no modifications.  The reason for the difference is that ethanol does not have the lubricity of gasoline and will overheat pumps and wear injectors.  The rest of the sensors and computers all do the same job regardless of the blend.
Title: Re: Warning on using E85 Fuels in Older Cars
Post by: tombogan03884 on January 07, 2013, 02:09:54 PM
Actually it's every seal and gasket in the fuel system since ethanol, as stated previously, is a solvent and eats many types of the rubber and plastic they are made of.
Burning food in your tank is stupid.
Title: Re: Warning on using E85 Fuels in Older Cars
Post by: MikeBjerum on January 07, 2013, 02:20:48 PM
Actually it's every seal and gasket in the fuel system since ethanol, as stated previously, is a solvent and eats many types of the rubber and plastic they are made of.
Burning food in your tank is stupid.

Tom,

Fuel components in vehicles since the 70's have been compatible with ethanol.  Methanol is the alcohol product that gave alcohol fuels a bad name.

As far as burning food:  The biproduct of ethanol production is a more valuable human and animal food product than raw #2 corn.  It does have draw backs in some animal feeds, but in the majority of feeds it offsets some high protein meals and also allows the use of other low quality feedstuffs.

As I have stated before, pay the farmer for his product, and he will market it that way.  We refused to pay them, so they developed a profitable market on their own.  Corn yield increases have kept pace with ethanol demands, but exports have also increased due to our poor economic condition.  The next time our dollar is strong and exports slow we will see prices drop again, even with ethanol production.
Title: Re: Warning on using E85 Fuels in Older Cars
Post by: PegLeg45 on January 07, 2013, 02:21:38 PM
JFTR: Wasn't saying anyone was wrong here..... just stating my own observations.   ;)



The reason for the different injectors is also the same with alcohol (ethanol) burning carbs (they take larger primary and secondary jets)..... it takes a different flow rate, which is also the reason for the fuel pump difference. That is also the reason for the 15% loss in mileage.....it takes slightly more volume of flow to get the same performance values.

I read in a GM bulletin at my dealership several years back that for certain year models, all of certain engine sizes (5.3 for example) were designed for Flex Fuel, even if not marked on the vehicle.....but you needed to know which years. The reason was that even though the pumps and injectors were the same on most models, the ignition timing and cam profiles were changed on a certain few runs of vehicles which caused some issues.


*As a side note, a neighbor down the road has a '68 Camaro with a 383 SB. He changed the timing, replaced the whole fuel system with a high-flow Holley fuel pump and SS lines and re-jetted the Dominator carb and the thing loves E85.
Title: Re: Warning on using E85 Fuels in Older Cars
Post by: PegLeg45 on January 07, 2013, 02:33:48 PM
Most of the fuel system problems caused by ethanol were from systems that have been modified or replaced with non-spec rubber lines. Small engines like on lawn mowers and ATV's and motorcycles have had problems due to the specs of the rubber, but most of those say up front in the manual to never use high concentrates of ethanol fuel. Our Yamaha Rhino says to use only 87 octane E10 or less.



Also, as a side note many folks get confused about the trashing of the fuel system..... that is way more of a problem for bio-diesel than ethanol.

My son was on the bio-fuel energy team that went to state fir our region FFA his senior year. They did a test on a tractor fuel system that was 20 years old by running bio-diesel in it. After one tank, the fuel system basically shredded itself and had to be replaced. When making the bio-diesel, one missed step causes the whole batch to basically become Go-Jo hand soap...... and even when it comes out as usable diesel, its cleaning properties will bring all the sludge and impurities out of an old system and wreak havoc on it.
Title: Re: Warning on using E85 Fuels in Older Cars
Post by: Big Frank on January 07, 2013, 04:11:16 PM
For the guys that say ethanol is a solvent, so is gasoline, so why the big fuss?
Title: Re: Warning on using E85 Fuels in Older Cars
Post by: crusader rabbit on January 08, 2013, 08:14:19 AM
For the guys that say ethanol is a solvent, so is gasoline, so why the big fuss?

Different solvents dissolve different stuff and mix with each other in different ways.  Water is a solvent, but it won't mix with gasoline.  It will mix with alcohol which will then mix with gasoline.  That what most of the "water removal" additives are down at the auto parts store.

Deepwater had the experience of having the liner of his motorcycle's fuel tank came off in flakes, clogging the rest of the fuel system.  This was because alcohol dissolves different stuff than gasoline.  It was an expensive and problematic correction.

As to the burning food in your gas tank issue, I agree that it should have been left to market forces without government subsidies to determine if that is a good idea. 

From personal observation, as the price of tortillas increased (nearly doubled) in Mexico and Guatemala, poor people struggled more, and more people went hungry.  Those governments subsidized tortilla production to help keep the price down on the one side, but with ethanol production subsidized on the other side, you can't win the price battle.  Poor people lose the most because their meager monies are not enough to buy necessary food.

The Brazillian model is certainly not perfect.  But they do have the advantage of making ethanol out of an essentially unneeded plant base.  Sugar ain't food.

And whatever supposed advantage post-production corn may have as an animal feed, we certainly are not seeing it in the meat markets.

Finally, while Tom may see commies under every rock, I think they are under enough of 'em it's not safe for any of us to be in our current rock quarry--unless we are carrying an awful lot of snake-shot. 

Since the '50s, this country has moved so far to the left that JFK would be considered a middle of the road Republican today.  Moving the country "back to the center" is in reality keeping it well left of center.  The political battle to save the country from the commies has been lost.  If it is to be saved, it will be through some form of revolution.  But, as Tom has noted, most of the sheeple will quietly hand in their guns and stand in line at the cattle cars waiting to be transported to the camps.

I weep for my nation,
Crusader
Title: Re: Warning on using E85 Fuels in Older Cars
Post by: Jrlobo on January 09, 2013, 03:00:46 PM
Sugar ain't food? Bullets ain't guns either, but what use are guns without bullets? My wife just made a german chocolate cake that I wouldn't dream of eating unless there was some that food-less sugar in it. I've tasted it with sugar substitutes...no thank you. Just watch what happens to food prices when we divert sugar cane production for engine fuel purposes. Stop and think folks. This is all a zero-sum game, rob peter to pay paul, situation.
Title: Re: Warning on using E85 Fuels in Older Cars
Post by: wtr100 on January 09, 2013, 03:25:00 PM
Actually it's every seal and gasket in the fuel system since ethanol, as stated previously, is a solvent and eats many types of the rubber and plastic they are made of.
Burning food in your tank is stupid.

seems to me seals are either resistant to ethanol or not

I watch the price and when E-20 or E-25 is lowere than E-10 I'll run that -
Title: Re: Warning on using E85 Fuels in Older Cars
Post by: tombogan03884 on January 09, 2013, 07:49:51 PM
Sugar ain't food? Bullets ain't guns either, but what use are guns without bullets? My wife just made a german chocolate cake that I wouldn't dream of eating unless there was some that food-less sugar in it. I've tasted it with sugar substitutes...no thank you. Just watch what happens to food prices when we divert sugar cane production for engine fuel purposes. Stop and think folks. This is all a zero-sum game, rob peter to pay paul, situation.

Kind of have to agree with Lobo here, I put 5 sugars in my coffee, and I drink about 20 cups a day .
Sugar is close to being my main food group .
But with 3 crops a year  I understand CR means it isn't a necessary food source like corn .