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Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: blackwolfe on December 14, 2012, 12:23:25 PM

Title: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: blackwolfe on December 14, 2012, 12:23:25 PM
Just heard that there was a shooting at a Connecticut elementary school shooting.  Many dead.  Sketchy facts at this time. Fox running coverage.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: oldkat69 on December 14, 2012, 12:45:38 PM
(http://) ??? When will we learn?  Gun free zones are kill zones.  :'(

I am a shooter. ???
I am a parent. :'(
I am a lawyer and a teacher. ???
I am a student of self defense. :(
Gun free zones are kill zones.  :-[

We must study Israel.

Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: PegLeg45 on December 14, 2012, 12:52:19 PM
My heart breaks for the victims of the school shooting in Connecticut...... and I pray for the families involved.




*As a side observation:
It's so sad that such a large number of people (even kids) can be shot, in that amount of time, and no adult bystanders even try to step in to do anything. Has this nation totally conditioned itself as helpless sheep that they won't even try to defend themselves or small kids?
We need more sheepdogs out there to fend off the wolves.

And the timing for this despicable act of a crazy man will feed the anti-gun frenzy to a high furor once again....reporters are already railing against the "Angry American Gun Culture"........ and this guy's 15 minutes of fame/shame in all the media outlets will only serve to encourage other 'copy-cats' to do more harm to innocents.

I just heard one reporter say the most sane thing I've ever heard one say related to why crazy people like this choose schools as targets for this type of insanity: And that is they know that there are no other guns around and no one to defend against them....Pure cowardice in my book.

As CR so often says, my heart weeps for this nation.


Input from Rob Pincus on the PDN page:

http://www.icetraining.info/how-should-the-firearms-community-respond-to-active-shooter-spree-murder-events-and-how-do-we-train-teachers/

http://www.icetraining.info/what-do-you-tell-your-kids-after-the-spree-killing-in-sandy-hook-ct/
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: Fox_Hound on December 14, 2012, 01:15:57 PM
We just had two murdered in the Clackamas Town Center here in OR day before yesterday. Had a talk with my girlfriend who is an excellent shot and soon to be a CHL holder about what we would do in such a situation. And now this. Her oldest just started school this year at a public school. I'm really dreading her hearing about it.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: oldkat69 on December 14, 2012, 01:34:43 PM
My heart breaks for the victims of the school shooting in Connecticut...... and I pray for the families involved.




*As a side observation:
It's so sad that such a large number of people (even kids) can be shot, in that amount of time, and no adult bystanders even try to step in to do anything. Has this nation totally conditioned itself as helpless sheep that they won't even try to defend themselves or small kids?
We need more sheepdogs out there to fend off the wolves.



Hey Peg,  didn't we just have this conversation on 11 days ago?
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: PegLeg45 on December 14, 2012, 02:17:24 PM
Hey Peg,  didn't we just have this conversation on 11 days ago?


Sadly, yessir.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: blackwolfe on December 14, 2012, 02:24:19 PM
Didn't take long.  Obama was just live on TV saying that "we have to take meaningful action, regardless of the politics. in the days ahead."  He ran through a list of recent incidents and threw in a "street corner in Chicago"
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: PegLeg45 on December 14, 2012, 02:33:04 PM
Didn't take long.  Obama was just live on TV saying that "we have to take meaningful action, regardless of the politics. in the days ahead."  He ran through a list of recent incidents and threw in a "street corner in Chicago"

BHO: Never one to let a crisis go to waste.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: Ksail101 on December 14, 2012, 03:18:15 PM
First I pray for the families of the victims and those whose lives will forever be changed by the PTSD they will suffer from this horror.

Now again in our public schools. Anyone seeing a trend here?  Can we please do something about it. When I was a kid I probably had 10 teachers in my life in the 2 schools I attended, One private one public, that were Vietnam vets. A couple with real ranger/lrrp and possible spec warfare background. I'm sure that they could have and would have done all they could to protect us kids if they had a means to do so.

We spend millions on dumb shit in this country and hell give our money away to undeserving people in other countries. (My beliefs) Would it be so hard to install auto locks on all doors in a school with main controls throughout like fire alarm pull switches. First shot bam someone locks them down. Next possibly a defense system in place. 3 teachers trained in some sort or firearms functioning and allowed, in the area they are in most, a secure firearm or threat disabling device to that be accessed to protect those he or she has under her control/sector. I know this is all so radical that it would never ever even be thought of or done.

Next and my last radical and extreme thought is this. We are faced with one of the most anti gun leadership in the history of the usa. And I am not just talking about Obamas term. People are so afraid he would ban guns you couldn't buy a box of ammo or popular gun for how long there. Anyway even before him there have been people put in very powerful positions who strongly oppose guns. What better way to prove the dangers of guns by having a lot of high profile "shooting sprees". Anyone finding it odd it's happening more and more lately. And the coverage these shooting in the media is insane. Unless the shooting hurts those in favor of gun bans ie fast and furious. I am by no means saying the government is the one behind these shootings but its odd that they are happening now with regularity and being covered like a coming apocalypse.  Something isn't adding up I can't figure it out. But there is a reason people are trying to gain fame or whatever by doing these shootings.

One thought to that is they are coaching kids from an early age that this is the ultimate crime. Much like being a gangster in the 20's (and the early 90's for that matter crips and bloods) were portrayed and look how that took off. Don't know just rambling thoughts. But it's funny when you preach against something so much yet it happens more. Huh? Don't know. Might be something there.

I'm tired of my guns being made to look like its the reason for this. It's the melted mind of a person doing it. But I'm preaching to the choir on how we all feel and see this.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: Solus on December 14, 2012, 03:33:10 PM
8 adults killed...all unarmed and defenseless by law.

If only one had been armed, this tragedy may have ended much sooner.

Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: MikeBjerum on December 14, 2012, 04:19:34 PM
There will be a lot of debate and ranting on both sides over this.  A period of mourning needs to take place, and we can all be best served by saying "I feel bad, I pray for all touched", and then we need to just SHUT UP!  In the heat of spinning the event, and we are just as good at it as the other side, we all say stupid stuff, and even the good stuff looks stupid.

Respect the situation, pray for all touched, if you believe in prayer and its power, and wait for the proper time to deal with our issues in the proper way.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: Ulmus on December 14, 2012, 04:44:56 PM
Prayers are sent and my tounge is bit.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: Ksail101 on December 14, 2012, 04:55:07 PM
M- Completely understand your train of thought and its one of genius and what should be. But you and I both know the opposition to the stance that we all feel strongly for and believe enough in to be on this forum is rallying the troops and probably sinking low enough to contract those touched to speak for their side.

Pray for those is the right thing to do but biting the tongue after and letting those that spew their Venom into everyone's ears without at least putting a bubble into their foundation I feel would be and will be detrimental to the cause. And really with so many of these crap events happening I feel a side will need to be chosen here soon and if not already.

It's already happening here at work and I work for the fed. Employees speaking their thoughts on gun control. I don't argue with anyone like some but I also can't bite my tongue out of respect for the situation. Even though it is 1000000000% the right thing to do. I have to at least give my best and most "educated" thoughts on gun control. I try to even use big words and mans voice to make my thoughts seem more indepth than the other screaming "ban'em all, save the children."
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: MikeBjerum on December 14, 2012, 05:17:02 PM
K - I know what you are saying, but trust me ... wait for it ... I can say it now and not only mean it, but have the proof and background to show it is true ... I am a trained professional in grief and PTS.  I know what I am doing, and I have done this for many years.  Trust me when I say that what the other side does during the next several days will not cost us.  What they do as a knee jerk emotional response will be easily discredited and undone.  In fact, if we act like rational adults we will gain the credibility to be the still voice of reason as we move forward to put the focus on the true issue.

There is a book, Don't Ask for the Dead Man's Golf Clubs, What to do and say (and what not to) when a friend loses a loved one by Lynn Kelly.  This book is the best resource to start an understanding of how the things we say and do are perceived and misconstrued by people in an emotional state.  It explains the error in playing the Don't let a good tragedy go to waste game that has been employed and will be utilized over the next few days.

Bottom line is to redirect you anger, concern and want to help to the people who need it.  Don't lash out and play politics right now.

I don't take my Faith lightly, and it is not a joke or tool to be used willy nilly.  However, I do strongly believe in Prayer, I believe it works for both the prayed for and the prayer.  I also believe that in the right time it can defuse situation.  What do you do when things start getting out of hand?  Look around the table, circle or whatever, and say "This is serious, there are people hurting here, there are people being put under stress as they deal with this aftermath, and we are multiplying the problem by ranting about it.  We need to change!  Will you pray with me right now for those who are hurting?"  This will not only put everything back in perspective, but it will let people know where you truly stand on the issue - It is not just a hot topic political thing, it is a serious social issue that we need to fix.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: Ksail101 on December 14, 2012, 05:31:12 PM
M- Truly great post.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: jaybet on December 14, 2012, 05:46:12 PM
THanks, Mike.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: BBJohnnyT on December 14, 2012, 06:06:57 PM
Bottom line is to redirect you anger, concern and want to help to the people who need it.  Don't lash out and play politics right now.

Totally agree, great post.  I'd like to add one more effective thing we can do...  Make a donation to the NRA-ILA.  I just made my largest donation to date and challenge everyone to do the same.

http://www.nraila.org/about-nra-ila.aspx

Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: DeltaM on December 14, 2012, 06:07:30 PM
We have had constitutional firearm rights for over 200 years.  These type of incidences seem to have come to the fore in the last 10 years or so.  What has changed in that period of time?  Work on fixing that.

The news media make copy-cats more prevalent.

Teachers can be armed with self-defense implements other than lethal weapons without the fear of collateral damage.  Tasers like the T2 that shoots darts & has backup contacts, smoke bombs, teargas grenades, etc.  Keep the outside doors locked, although the recent shootings at the movie theater where the perpetrator jammed the door open makes this a weak defense.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: Ksail101 on December 14, 2012, 06:17:01 PM
M- Your post really has me thinking. Yes knee jerk reaction is to blame guns so my reaction is to defend them cause my vision of the problem is so much more far reaching. But I am going to take what you said and apply it. Social problem is right. This starts in and at the family dinner table. And some faith in higher power also needs to be there.

And if by me saying to the people in the break room "hey man or gal, lets not even talk about the guns that caused this and just think about the people whose lives just got ripped apart." Just maybe that will make them think for two seconds about their loved ones. And maybe evaluate something they haven't thought about in while.

I was listening to the radio on my drive home just now. And it is sad. "Whats the point of guns?" "Why is it soooo easy to get guns." "I hate guns." That is what every call said. Not one said "I am calling to tell your listeners to hangup sitting on hold and spend those wasted minutes to call their son or daughter and tell them what they mean to them"

M- I need your phone number cause with my turned upside down life at times it seems you may be able to make think outside the box. LOL
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: Respen33 on December 14, 2012, 06:25:08 PM
Perhaps a reflection on the situation is required before reaction commences. One side says ban all firearms while another says bring them into school. I know DC schools with metro police on premise and active SRT teams with gun violence/stabbings monthly. So obviously that isn't a solution

The need to commit doesn't change with limitations put on the law abiding. Nor does liberating the masses to openly carry prevent a massacre from being started. I think we all agree a focused manic is as dangerous as a frightened novice with a firearm.

The rules of reason and rational thought, something lost in translation, are what govern how we react to such events. Emotional lashing out only disqualifies the argument and lessens the impact the statement demands.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: oldkat69 on December 14, 2012, 06:36:35 PM
Has anybody been able to find out how this creep was equipped.  I have heard he had a black tacti-cool vest and two pistols stolen from his mother.  I have also heard news rumors of body armor and something in .223?  Anybody have the facts yet? ???
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: tombogan03884 on December 14, 2012, 06:38:00 PM
Just sent to my Congresswoman. (Kelly Ayotte)

Earlier today, before the tragedy in Conn, there was an incident in China where 23 students and 3 adults were STABBED.
This is obviously not a "gun" issue .
If you wish to take effective action to prevent future incidents there are 2 methods.
First, armed teachers. This has been successful in Israel . If a teacher is not competent to posses a fire arm they should not be in a class room to begin with.
I will point out also, that since the inception of the Armed pilot program there has not been a hi jacking in the US.
The second, and more important action would be a law to prohibit media outlets from ever publishing, or naming the deranged losers who commit these crimes.


To comment on KSails first post, this could not have happened with out the assistance of some one already in the building.
According to the Blaze visitors to the school have to be admitted by a staff member.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/a-look-at-the-uniform-and-the-weapons-used-by-the-conn-school-shooter/

On Megyn Kelly’s America Live program on Fox News, a mother of a student called in pointing out that visitors to the school need to be buzzed in through the doors by the front desk.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: kmitch200 on December 14, 2012, 06:40:25 PM
K - I know what you are saying, but trust me ... wait for it ... I can say it now and not only mean it, but have the proof and background to show it is true ... I am a trained professional in grief and PTS.  I know what I am doing, and I have done this for many years.  Trust me when I say that what the other side does during the next several days will not cost us.  What they do as a knee jerk emotional response will be easily discredited and undone.  In fact, if we act like rational adults we will gain the credibility to be the still voice of reason as we move forward to put the focus on the true issue. 

M58, your whole post is great advice when dealing with grief stricken people. Those people are feeling real pain and need every break they can get.

The part I bolded:  
This just doesn't fit with the gameplan of those who are political animals. What they do in the next few days could very well ream us for the rest of our lives. If BO does a knee jerk, backed by a knee jerk Congress, it wouldn't hit the Supremes for years.  
We have been the voice of reason for decades and decades.
They don't care!!
We could have the credibility of Solomon.
They don't care!

They have their media aided/fueled agenda that makes celebrities out of whack jobs. If "they" gave a damn about anything but their agenda, wouldn't they push to keep the bad guys names out of the press just like the totals for bank robberies are hushed up? Instead we get the opposite.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: tombogan03884 on December 14, 2012, 06:46:08 PM
M58's post ignores the history of recent gun bans in Canada, England, and Australia , all of which were pushed through by a tiny minority in "knee jerk reaction" to mass shootings.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: Timothy on December 14, 2012, 06:49:55 PM
Has anybody been able to find out how this creep was equipped.  I have heard he had a black tacti-cool vest and two pistols stolen from his mother.  I have also heard news rumors of body armor and something in .223?  Anybody have the facts yet? ???

The CT SP are not releasing any critical details yet and anything we've heard it speculative at best.  This is in my back yard and all the local channels have live news crews in Newtown.  They're all saying basically the same thing; the cops aren't talking, yet!
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: tombogan03884 on December 14, 2012, 07:02:08 PM
Has anybody been able to find out how this creep was equipped.  I have heard he had a black tacti-cool vest and two pistols stolen from his mother.  I have also heard news rumors of body armor and something in .223?  Anybody have the facts yet? ???

Tim needs to sign up for "The Blaze".    ;D

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/a-look-at-the-uniform-and-the-weapons-used-by-the-conn-school-shooter/

The Connecticut elementary school gunman who has killed at least 26 people — eight adults and 18 children — Friday was reportedly outfitted in military attire and had at least two guns, which were recovered on the scene. Some have begun to wonder how the man entered the school where visitors have to be let in by staff.

According to Fox News Insider, the now-deceased, 20-something-year-old shooter at Sandy Hook Elementary in Newtown wore black BDUs (battle dress uniform), which are standard combat uniforms like those sold on Camping Survival, and a military-style vest. The shooter, who was reportedly identified as Ryan Lanza, also had a mask covering his face.
The Connecticut elementary school gunman who has killed at least 26 people — eight adults and 18 children — Friday was reportedly outfitted in military attire and had at least two guns, which were recovered on the scene. Some have begun to wonder how the man entered the school where visitors have to be let in by staff.

On Megyn Kelly’s America Live program on Fox News, a mother of a student called in pointing out that visitors to the school need to be buzzed in through the doors by the front desk. The mother, whose daughter was not hurt, said she doesn’t believe the secretary would let in a person wearing a mask or questionable clothing. The Associated Press reports the gunman had ties, which are not yet specified, to the school.

Two guns were initially reported to have been found on the scene, but some outlets now report four. Reports reference a semi-automatic Glock and Sig Sauer 9 mm being recovered, as well as a .223 caliber rifle.

According to Sig Sauer’s website, the 9mm P226 is used by “U.S. Navy SEALs, Federal agents, and numerous law enforcement agencies including the Texas Rangers, Ohio State Highway Patrol and the Michigan State Police to name a few.”

A .223 rifle has been called by gun experts “the best home-defense weapon” and “a rifleman’s most valuable tool.” Guns Magazine wrote that the .223 “shoots far, fast and flat” and has a “relatively moderate cost.”

Reuters reports an entire classroom is currently unaccounted for, while other children have been removed to a safe location or have gone home with parents.

A law enforcement official speaking under the condition of anonymity said that New Jersey state police are searching a location in that state in connection with the shootings, according to the AP.

Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: Ksail101 on December 14, 2012, 07:11:42 PM
Maybe i have this wrong but ABC said They found two handguns on the person and they found the rifle in the car. Does that mean it was not used?

Tom- I am glad you chimed in. Knee Jerk reactions can be very costly. Obama just said in his statement he is going to act. And some press sec. Jay something I believe says he is still strong on his Assault weapons ban right after.
That is why I was a little afraid of completely biting the tongue. And I know everything that i mentioned will not stop all deaths in these instances but try to limit them was my goal. Stopping will never happen. Weather it be with guns here in America or Bombs in the poorer population countries. I still dont think more gun laws need to be instated. The mom bought these guns or at least they were registered to her. So limiting the sale will not help anything but the black market.

What if he would have been escorted by a volunteer ccw citizen. There are Volunteers in Hospitals maybe that is what is needed. There will be no end but to limit damage is the goal. That is why I own my guns. To give myself a fair shot no pun intended.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: MikeBjerum on December 14, 2012, 07:15:17 PM
M- Your post really has me thinking. Yes knee jerk reaction is to blame guns so my reaction is to defend them cause my vision of the problem is so much more far reaching. But I am going to take what you said and apply it. Social problem is right. This starts in and at the family dinner table. And some faith in higher power also needs to be there.

And if by me saying to the people in the break room "hey man or gal, lets not even talk about the guns that caused this and just think about the people whose lives just got ripped apart." Just maybe that will make them think for two seconds about their loved ones. And maybe evaluate something they haven't thought about in while.

I was listening to the radio on my drive home just now. And it is sad. "Whats the point of guns?" "Why is it soooo easy to get guns." "I hate guns." That is what every call said. Not one said "I am calling to tell your listeners to hangup sitting on hold and spend those wasted minutes to call their son or daughter and tell them what they mean to them"

M- I need your phone number cause with my turned upside down life at times it seems you may be able to make think outside the box. LOL

I need to clarify something so I don't make an ass of myself:

Are you asking me to help you stay out of a box, or do you want help being put in a box?

Once again, I AM a trained professional, and there is a reason for the SASS alias of Coffin Filler  ;D
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: PegLeg45 on December 14, 2012, 07:47:35 PM
Bloomberg isn't wasting any time.......already blasting anyone and everyone, including BHO for not jumping all over guns.



As a side note:
It's sad that we are no longer really teaching morality to the children in schools ....... how do we expect our citizens then to act morally as adults?..........
This type situation is a result of decades-long secular craziness.

JMHO, FWIW
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: blackwolfe on December 14, 2012, 07:59:25 PM
M58 has some great points.  Thanks Mike.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: JoeG on December 14, 2012, 08:11:34 PM
I am not sure what the best answer is to the obvious parade of self absorbed bullshit we will see following this. I have so far just said that I wish one of the adults present had been armed and willing to accept the emotional trauma of stopping this guy the only realistic way. I acknowledge that most people don't want to be the one running into the burning building, but that some of us are wired that way and willing to do it. It is too bad that we can't be honest about protecting ourselves from this kind of insanity and instead it politicized.

I haven't seen anything about who knew how messed up this kid was, but I expect there were signs that got ignored by people that should have known better. Hard shit to confront.

Frustrated and angry at our pathetic public posturing.

Joe
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: tombogan03884 on December 14, 2012, 08:19:29 PM
It's a predictable pattern .
Huntsville Al, Tuscon, Va Tech, Colo in all these cases, and probably others I can't come up with off the top of my head,
A person exhibits signs of severe mental problems that are either downplayed, ignored, or covered up until the person kills a bunch of people and the media wonder why did this happen as the make an international celebrity out of a deranged loser inspiring the next one..

EDITTED TO ADD, told ya so.

http://gma.yahoo.com/connecticut-shooter-adam-lanza-obviously-not-well-182011729--abc-news-topstories.html

 Adam Lanza, the 20-year-old who killed 20 children and six adults at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut this morning, was "obviously not well," a relative told ABC News.

Family friends in Newtown also described the young man as troubled and described his mother Nancy as very rigid. "[Adam] was not connected with the other kids," said one friend.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>MORE AT LINK<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: Ksail101 on December 14, 2012, 08:49:39 PM
I need to clarify something so I don't make an ass of myself:

Are you asking me to help you stay out of a box, or do you want help being put in a box?

Once again, I AM a trained professional, and there is a reason for the SASS alias of Coffin Filler  ;D

You weren't kidding you really do know how to handle situations. You just bury the problem. LOL.

And just as a side I think I have been to the website of your place of business now that I think about. I remember you putting the link somewhere. Maybe under the Rangers contact page... LOL. I knew I was setting myself up here thinking one of you guys could possibly help my crazy. But then once again I am reminded of why I feel so at home here...
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: Ksail101 on December 14, 2012, 08:59:03 PM

I haven't seen anything about who knew how messed up this kid was, but I expect there were signs that got ignored by people that should have known better. Hard shit to confront.
 Joe

Mom and Dad divorced. Dad remarried. My own thoughts which dont count for sh*t held grudge over divorce. And that started it all. Dad is high up in a company i saw. Most likely not leaving a lot of time for son. And possibly chose women (maybe many or maybe just new wife) over him. New wife makes Dad so happy something mom could never do. Thus planting the seed mom is at fault for divorce. Or mom initiated the divorce by catching dad in bed with new wife. Thus planting seed its all moms fault. Just my thoughts. Broken young. Never repaired. Mom was too busy probably fixing all the kids at school to realize she may have one damaged at home. Or she could have been the best mother ever and son was born with a bad chip in the brain.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: PegLeg45 on December 14, 2012, 09:13:38 PM
http://www.examiner.com/article/obama-wants-action-regardless-of-politics-after-gun-free-school-zone-tragedy?cid=db_articles
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: MikeBjerum on December 15, 2012, 12:03:02 AM
Ksail,

I have always been told how easy my profession is, because my clients don't talk back and I bury my mistakes.  Sadly, we serve the living and the dead are what brings us into the mix.  When I was day to day in the funeral home I thought I was busy.  Now that I am in another part of the business with a fancy title and a description that includes adviser and consultant I find that many organizations and communities feel more comfortable calling me in, because it was thought in the past that we are in it just for the money.  Today they view me as an "impartial expert."

Have you heard about the Little Falls, MN officer who was ambushed and murdered?  Guess who gets to help support the professionals that help the community?  I was in that neighborhood to give a different training yesterday, and ended up spending almost four hours dealing with aftermath.  A little over a month ago there was a shooting in a Sub Shop in Minneapolis while I was at a Forensic Science seminar.  I was displaying between three companies that do the physical clean up after these things, and I quickly learned how raw their emotions are on the job.  The shooting took place on day one, two of the three were called to bid the clean up, the company sponsoring a hospitality suite I was helping with got the job and had to go to work around 10:30pm; and the next day I am unofficially helping two workers that spent the night dealing with aftermath logistics.

We never know who the victims are, and how our words and actions will affect the community.  Anybody that has ever been involved with Critical Incident Debriefing will tell you that the only known in the mix is that it is a time bomb with an unknown amount of time on each of the different timers in the room.  Your job is to defuse each timer before it erupts, and start that detonator down the long and tough path to being fully disarmed.  This incident has started many timers ticking.  Let's not be one of the persons who speeds those ticking hands to a quicker blow!

Back on track - Let's all just love our family, friends and others right now.  Let's ignore the hype, and focus on what is important.  The day to day will return again, and let us be the ones who come as a voice of reason among the rants.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: MikeBjerum on December 15, 2012, 12:06:25 AM
http://www.examiner.com/article/obama-wants-action-regardless-of-politics-after-gun-free-school-zone-tragedy?cid=db_articles

Thankfully he is just ranting "full support, and fix it"  No specifics, because he doesn't really have any, and nothing except crocodile tears.  The video I saw was so obvious I could almost see him counting during the parts where his speech writer had said pause ten seconds and wipe eye.

Let him rant!  People recognize him for what he is, and they will see through it after Christmas.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting.
Post by: TAB on December 15, 2012, 12:59:39 AM
it really makes me sick, that there are those out there that would use something like this for political gain.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: billt on December 15, 2012, 04:46:10 AM
M58,

I respect your post, and your training in this matter. But the fact remains every time the conservative Republicans come into these type of political issues with this whole "kinder, gentler, more common sense approach" to these issues, we get smacked down, and in the process get our asses handed to us. My bona fides are the last 2 elections. Romney lost for the same reason McCain did. He wasn't tough enough. Compassion buys you $h!t in politics today. Look at what happened in Michigan the other day with the Democratic union thugs. They are much like a school bully that plays on the weak, and strikes at the best opportunity FOR HIM. The conservative Republicans need a bigger stick, and they need to START SWINGING IT! or I'm afraid this will continue. And as a result we will continue to LOSE!
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: fightingquaker13 on December 15, 2012, 05:00:02 AM
I think its an even money bet here. Bill. The antis like Bloomberg were making hay over this literally before the bodies cooled. Maybe that's mobilizing first, but I think its going to piss a lot of folks off who recognize it for what it is.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: twyacht on December 15, 2012, 06:47:49 AM
My prayers are with the families and survivors of yet another tragedy utilizing firearms.

The Chinese man that slashed 22 at a school will be ignored.
http://www.courant.com/sns-rt-us-china-stabbingsbre8bd065-20121213,0,5592318.story

The Dems will try to back the opposition into a corner by creative phrasing. Example:

The Child Safety And Protection Act. Who could vote against such a piece of legislation?

My question is the Sig and Glock must have only had a 10 rd. mag. right? High caps are already banned?

billt, you make some very good points.

Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: Timothy on December 15, 2012, 07:35:14 AM
My question is the Sig and Glock must have only had a 10 rd. mag. right? High caps are already banned?

CT shot down that legislation, large capacity magazines are legal, at least for the moment.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: tombogan03884 on December 15, 2012, 08:09:28 AM
Mom and Dad divorced. Dad remarried. My own thoughts which dont count for sh*t held grudge over divorce. And that started it all. Dad is high up in a company i saw. Most likely not leaving a lot of time for son. And possibly chose women (maybe many or maybe just new wife) over him. New wife makes Dad so happy something mom could never do. Thus planting the seed mom is at fault for divorce. Or mom initiated the divorce by catching dad in bed with new wife. Thus planting seed its all moms fault. Just my thoughts. Broken young. Never repaired. Mom was too busy probably fixing all the kids at school to realize she may have one damaged at home. Or she could have been the best mother ever and son was born with a bad chip in the brain.

When it comes right down to it, who really gives a crap what personal circumstances influenced this person ?
His brother and Father lived through exactly the same circumstances and seem to be fairly successful and well adjusted.
So the whole BS liberal spiel of "blaming his environment" holds no water.
He was just messed up in the head, his own relatives described him as "obviously disturbed" .
Let's take a look at the incidents I can list off the top of my head.

University of Alabama Huntsville, as a teen the shooter had murdered her brother, it was covered up as an "accident"

Va. Tech shooter was deemed "dangerously unstable" was not supposed to return to school with out treatment. papers were removed from his file.

Aurora Colo, shooter was receiving psychiatric care

Now this guy in Conn "obviously disturbed".
This is not an issue the shooting community or politicians are equipped to address .
This is not about guns, it is about the mental health industry failing the community, and it is about media reminding the disturbed that no matter how meaningless their existence if they go shoot up a mall or school, or movie theater the media will spend days making their name a house hold word .
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: tt11758 on December 15, 2012, 08:26:53 AM
I just learned something I did not know.  According to an NYPD Homicide Detective "expert" on Fox News this morning, "hollow-point bullets can penetrate a bulletproof vest".

What a putz.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: Ulmus on December 15, 2012, 10:06:49 AM
Ok.  I waited. Now to state the obvious. 

Arm the teachers!  Give these people the ability to defend their students. 

We already let them educate and influence our children to the point that the teachers are considered closer than extended family members.  (How often does a kid see their teacher vs. how often they see their Uncle, Aunt, or cousin?)  If we trust them that much with their education and perspectives on events, then we should trust them enough to protect the students as well.

There are teachers out there who are well trained for encounters like this.  Veterans like Ryan Roquin, a Marine that teaches history.  Others that want the ability to protect their students should be given free training.  They could be trained by the local police at their range.

It doesn't have to be mandetory, in fact it shouldn't, but those that want to protect the students the teach and love should have the ability to do so.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: JoeG on December 15, 2012, 01:45:49 PM


Aurora Colo, shooter was receiving psychiatric care

Now this guy in Conn "obviously disturbed".
This is not an issue the shooting community or politicians are equipped to address .
This is not about guns, it is about the mental health industry failing the community, and it is about media reminding the disturbed that no matter how meaningless their existence if they go shoot up a mall or school, or movie theater the media will spend days making their name a house hold word .


I fell into doing these assessments for my company about 15 years ago whenever we ID a person or situation that is creating concern or fear in the workplace (or should be!). I have learned a lot about how hard it is to predict who is actually a threat vs. those that just make threats. The only good way is to prepare and then interview them to get a sense of their reality. mostly they deescalate when someone actually pays attention to them and their tangled emotions.

The mental health system is totally not set up to identify and deal with these rare individuals that actually present a threat. Likely he had been saying and doing things that scared his mother for weeks but she couldn't/wouldn't admit to herself what she was seeing. We know there is a curve of increasing violence that people climb on their way to doing violence to people. Verbal threats, written threats, violence to things, etc. The more times someone climbs the curve without consequences, the faster they climb it next time.

The only way to intervene is early ID and investigation. the legal issues are so messy that most folks do a cursory check and file a report and move on. Does nothing to break the cycle.  It comes down to situational awareness which seems to be a price most folks don't want to pay.

It is much easier to blame the guns than realize that people can be dangerous and we need to act like adults and deal with reality.

Joe
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: tombogan03884 on December 15, 2012, 06:57:56 PM
I fell into doing these assessments for my company about 15 years ago whenever we ID a person or situation that is creating concern or fear in the workplace (or should be!). I have learned a lot about how hard it is to predict who is actually a threat vs. those that just make threats. The only good way is to prepare and then interview them to get a sense of their reality. mostly they deescalate when someone actually pays attention to them and their tangled emotions.

The mental health system is totally not set up to identify and deal with these rare individuals that actually present a threat. Likely he had been saying and doing things that scared his mother for weeks but she couldn't/wouldn't admit to herself what she was seeing. We know there is a curve of increasing violence that people climb on their way to doing violence to people. Verbal threats, written threats, violence to things, etc. The more times someone climbs the curve without consequences, the faster they climb it next time.

The only way to intervene is early ID and investigation. the legal issues are so messy that most folks do a cursory check and file a report and move on. Does nothing to break the cycle.  It comes down to situational awareness which seems to be a price most folks don't want to pay.

It is much easier to blame the guns than realize that people can be dangerous and we need to act like adults and deal with reality.

Joe

When I posted I knew there were people like you in the gun community who have an understanding of the real problem . But if you had the power, you would not address it through gun manufacturers or the implements themselves so the generalization worked.

Ok.  I waited. Now to state the obvious. 

Arm the teachers!  Give these people the ability to defend their students. 

We already let them educate and influence our children to the point that the teachers are considered closer than extended family members.  (How often does a kid see their teacher vs. how often they see their Uncle, Aunt, or cousin?)  If we trust them that much with their education and perspectives on events, then we should trust them enough to protect the students as well.

There are teachers out there who are well trained for encounters like this.  Veterans like Ryan Roquin, a Marine that teaches history.  Others that want the ability to protect their students should be given free training.  They could be trained by the local police at their range.

It doesn't have to be mandetory, in fact it shouldn't, but those that want to protect the students the teach and love should have the ability to do so.


It has been successfully used for years in Israel .

http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/310078.aspx

Two Palestinian terrorists disguised in Israel Defense Forces (IDF) uniforms entered the study hall at Makor Haim High School in Kibbutz Kfar Etzion southeast of Jerusalem.

Armed with guns and knives, the terrorists managed to stab several students before armed school counselors arrived and shot them dead.

"The terrorists came inside and began stabbing the students," a defense official said.

"This could have ended much worse," said another in Central Command


It is also done in Thailand

http://old.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel200409022215.asp

If a teacher can not be trusted with a fire arm the question must be asked .\
 Does that person belong in a class room in the first place ?
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: Frosty on December 15, 2012, 11:24:31 PM
GUN FREE ZONES ARE KILL ZONES!
A guy in CO. has done a map that showed there were 7 movie  theaters within the same amount of travel time as the aurora theater for the wacko that did the shootings.. The aurora theater had posted signs stating "No Weapons allowed" which = GUN FREE ZONE Nobody will oppose me! None of the other theaters had those signs.
I'm starting to see a pattern develop. :o Sheeple wake up!
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: Big Frank on December 15, 2012, 11:28:38 PM
When are we as a nation going to address the real problem?
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: lhprop1 on December 16, 2012, 12:32:48 AM
It has been successfully used for years in Israel .

http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/310078.aspx

Two Palestinian terrorists disguised in Israel Defense Forces (IDF) uniforms entered the study hall at Makor Haim High School in Kibbutz Kfar Etzion southeast of Jerusalem.

Armed with guns and knives, the terrorists managed to stab several students before armed school counselors arrived and shot them dead.

"The terrorists came inside and began stabbing the students," a defense official said.

"This could have ended much worse," said another in Central Command


It is also done in Thailand

http://old.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel200409022215.asp

If a teacher can not be trusted with a fire arm the question must be asked .\
 Does that person belong in a class room in the first place ?


There are states where it is legal for teachers to carry in class. A teacher can carry in class in MN with written permission from the principal (good luck getting permission, though). There are a few other states where it's legal for teachers to carry. I know Utah is one of them.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: Magoo541 on December 16, 2012, 01:04:04 AM
Oregon is another that allows public school teachers to carry in class, or any other CCW permit holder.  This was played out in public by a teach, down in Medford IIRC, that got a CCW for what she thought was a real threat to her safety.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: lhprop1 on December 16, 2012, 01:43:58 AM
Here's something to ponder:  Does HIPPA prevent mental defects from showing up during a NICS?  If so, get rid of HIPPA, at least for things like NICS and you're not going to have cockholes like Laughner and the dickhead in CO being able to access firearms in the first place.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: TAB on December 16, 2012, 02:49:02 AM
Part of the prob is figuring out who is a threat and who is just nuts.    thats something that is very hard to determine.   you can be nuts and be perfectly safe with a gun, or you can be sane and be a danger to everyone.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: sweet1911 on December 16, 2012, 07:08:35 AM
If people want to be angry about something they should be angry at the people who let this freak out on the street knowing he had mental issues and chose not to do anything about it, instead of fixing the problem all people want to do is change this country into something they think is better, New Jersey and New York and Connecticut already have some of the strictest gun laws we have in this country and that didn't help to prevent this tragedy, most all of these horrific shootings that were committed by these people, these people were mentally unstable and in almost every case family members and friends new and they were diagnosed with some form of mental illness and the authorities were even notify but they all looked the other way,(( that is the problem)),  , and if you look at all these horrific tragedies where they have mass shootings you will find that most all of them were committed in gun free zones where it was against the Law to have a weapon, so these murderers knew they would have no armed citizens against them so all the people are sitting ducks at the murderers Mercy, and anybody who thinks they can take the weapons away from murderers is living in a fantasy world those bad people will always find a way to get them, our own government even gives them out to the cartel in Mexico, we have had rifles and pistols with detachable magazines for as long as I can remember and I am 62 but we never had any problems like this until the last 10 or 15 years the weapons really have not changed that much, (but the people have) in this past 15 years or so, so much has changed in this country in a negative way from simple things like the food we eat is mostly chemicals today the doctors are handing out prescription drugs to our children like candy we no longer have enough jobs in this country for the people who live here creating a tremendous amount of stress on families the healthcare is a joke controlled by insurance companies who do not want to pay out for people who are mentally unstable forcing them to be out on the street to do these horrible crimes, today's children have been raised with incredible violence on TV and in the movies and videogames, our government knows this is happening but they do not do anything because they have no money they have spent it all on projects we don't need given it to other countries ,and our government knows any time a horrific tragedy like this happens they are one step closer to getting their way, there are so many ways to protect children in school but it seems nobody figured it out yet one simple door that separatesthe front lobby and office from the rest of the school that can be activated by a simple switch just like a sliding gate door you have in a prison, in most schools once you get inside the front entrance you have access to the entire school there should be a separation door between the children and the front office that is always closed and locked and can be locked remotely with a secondary lock and cannot be penetrated without a special key carried by law enforcement or  fire department
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: Jrlobo on December 16, 2012, 08:22:42 AM
sweet, we can't hide from the problem. We can't blame the problem on everything in society, because you left out air and water pollution, ad nauseum. The problem is nut jobs, how do we classify them as dangerous and what can we do about them. The CT shooter didn't even own the guns he used according to reports I have heard; his mother did. Remember how the government reacted to plane hijackings. They locked the cockpit doors, etc. Your solution sounds the same. Is this how we want to live our lives in this country from now on? Lock up everything? It doesn't stop at the schools. Next are the public libraries, then all bathrooms and then, God forbid, restaurants and bars! Anyplace people congregate. Know the secret word and you get in. I personally don't want to live like the Israelis. Do any of us want that? Live with honor, yes. Live in constant fear, no.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: tombogan03884 on December 16, 2012, 08:33:11 AM
Sweets placing the blame on outside factors doesn't work any better than any other liberal "product of his environment" BS. Neither does the "lack of morality" excuse.
Millions are subject to exactly the same influences with out ever harming any one .
Until every one accepts that the root of the problem is deranged individuals nothing constructive will be done about it.
It really should not take a high school drop out to point this out.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: Timothy on December 16, 2012, 08:54:46 AM
Apparently the mourning period is over for the media...nothing but talk about more gun control on the Sunday morning news programs!

Even Fox, fair and balanced as they say they are, is leaning toward "the instrument" rather than the "individual"! 
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: jaybet on December 16, 2012, 09:02:06 AM
If people want to be angry about something they should be angry at the people who let this freak out on the street knowing he had mental issues and chose not to do anything about it, instead of fixing the problem all people want to do is change this country into something they think is better, New Jersey and New York and Connecticut already have some of the strictest gun laws we have in this country and that didn't help to prevent this tragedy, most all of these horrific shootings that were committed by these people, these people were mentally unstable and in almost every case family members and friends new and they were diagnosed with some form of mental illness and the authorities were even notify but they all looked the other way,(( that is the problem)),  , and if you look at all these horrific tragedies where they have mass shootings you will find that most all of them were committed in gun free zones where it was against the Law to have a weapon, so these murderers knew they would have no armed citizens against them so all the people are sitting ducks at the murderers Mercy, and anybody who thinks they can take the weapons away from murderers is living in a fantasy world those bad people will always find a way to get them, our own government even gives them out to the cartel in Mexico, we have had rifles and pistols with detachable magazines for as long as I can remember and I am 62 but we never had any problems like this until the last 10 or 15 years the weapons really have not changed that much, (but the people have) in this past 15 years or so, so much has changed in this country in a negative way from simple things like the food we eat is mostly chemicals today the doctors are handing out prescription drugs to our children like candy we no longer have enough jobs in this country for the people who live here creating a tremendous amount of stress on families the healthcare is a joke controlled by insurance companies who do not want to pay out for people who are mentally unstable forcing them to be out on the street to do these horrible crimes, today's children have been raised with incredible violence on TV and in the movies and videogames, our government knows this is happening but they do not do anything because they have no money they have spent it all on projects we don't need given it to other countries ,and our government knows any time a horrific tragedy like this happens they are one step closer to getting their way, there are so many ways to protect children in school but it seems nobody figured it out yet one simple door that separatesthe front lobby and office from the rest of the school that can be activated by a simple switch just like a sliding gate door you have in a prison, in most schools once you get inside the front entrance you have access to the entire school there should be a separation door between the children and the front office that is always closed and locked and can be locked remotely with a secondary lock and cannot be penetrated without a special key carried by law enforcement or  fire department
I have a period and I'm not afraid to use it.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: MikeBjerum on December 16, 2012, 09:46:03 AM
Blood Thirsty Media Carnage!!!

How many of the next of kin do you think gave full consent to the media to name their dead and post their pictures?

Last night school photos of the dead along with their names began showing up in newspapers and on news reports.

These were innocent victims, and they and their families are entitled to the protection of privacy at this time.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: Timothy on December 16, 2012, 09:56:13 AM
Snuffleupagus had four liberals against two conservatives on his program.  Again, all about the guns and how to restrict their availability to those who do harm with them.

M58...privacy no longer exists in this country!  Sadly, these children will be used to further an agenda and will have been forgotten by all but a very select few over the next few years.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: MikeBjerum on December 16, 2012, 10:05:51 AM
Timothy,

I will start the legal fund right here and right now to provide legal counsel for the families of the fallen who do not agree with their names and images being used to further any agenda!  I will expand this to victim family who does not agree with the wording and name usage on the memorial against guns that will be erected at this site.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: kmitch200 on December 16, 2012, 10:09:33 AM
I have a period and I'm not afraid to use it.

Keep your periods between you and your OBGYN.  ;D
I think he deserves an award the the longest sentence I've ever seen.

Here's something to ponder:  Does HIPPA prevent mental defects from showing up during a NICS?  If so, get rid of HIPPA, at least for things like NICS and you're not going to have cockholes like Laughner and the dickhead in CO being able to access firearms in the first place.

History says you are wrong about this.
Banning, restricting, demanding ID & signatures, etc., etc. has not "stopped" anything -- ever.   It just creates a black market.
The .gov took over the counter narcotics out of stores and prefers them being distributed by violent gangs instead.
The same thing happens today in DC & Chicago with guns.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: Timothy on December 16, 2012, 10:10:34 AM
Timothy,

I will start the legal fund right here and right now to provide legal counsel for the families of the fallen who do not agree with their names and images being used to further any agenda!  I will expand this to victim family who does not agree with the wording and name usage on the memorial against guns that will be erected at this site.

And I'll make the first donation Michael!  I wasn't disagreeing with you my friend...I've stayed pretty quiet since Friday about this story and not afraid to say I shed a few tears for these families....
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: JoeG on December 16, 2012, 10:34:05 AM
When I posted I knew there were people like you in the gun community who have an understanding of the real problem . But if you had the power, you would not address it through gun manufacturers or the implements themselves so the generalization worked.


Obviously no I wouldn't go after guns. In fact, my recognition of these facts and my belief that our current social addiction to victimhood and pretending there is simple "just ban guns" solution is a big motivator for me to teach shooting to boy scouts. First to immunize them against the silly guns are evil crap with personal experience and then to get them to understand they are in charge of what they do in crisis.

I think that the rise of concealed carry is an instinctive rejection by the younger generations of the silly cluelessness of the baby boomers (hippies). Politics is always the boat anchor holding us back from change. I think it will get worse for a while and suddenly flip and being armed will become fashionable. And bring in a new set of challenges, like "does this gun make my butt look fat?"  :)
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: JoeG on December 16, 2012, 10:39:45 AM
Here's something to ponder:  Does HIPPA prevent mental defects from showing up during a NICS?  If so, get rid of HIPPA, at least for things like NICS and you're not going to have cockholes like Laughner and the dickhead in CO being able to access firearms in the first place.

No essentially you must have a valid reason for sharing someone's medical info. This would be a valid reason if handled correctly.

The critical problem is small number of persons that present a real threat vs. the large number of people that act threatening or talk scary. People have gotten used to being able to say stupid angry threaten shit without consequences. EG. look at how many political statements are made about the opposition wanting kill people or wishing someone would do it to them.

Heinlein had it right an armed society is a polite society.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: JoeG on December 16, 2012, 10:40:51 AM
Part of the prob is figuring out who is a threat and who is just nuts.    thats something that is very hard to determine.   you can be nuts and be perfectly safe with a gun, or you can be Mostly sane and be a danger to everyone.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: tombogan03884 on December 16, 2012, 10:50:07 AM
Obviously no I wouldn't go after guns. In fact, my recognition of these facts and my belief that our current social addiction to victimhood and pretending there is simple "just ban guns" solution is a big motivator for me to teach shooting to boy scouts. First to immunize them against the silly guns are evil crap with personal experience and then to get them to understand they are in charge of what they do in crisis.

I think that the rise of concealed carry is an instinctive rejection by the younger generations of the silly cluelessness of the baby boomers (hippies). Politics is always the boat anchor holding us back from change. I think it will get worse for a while and suddenly flip and being armed will become fashionable. And bring in a new set of challenges, like "does this gun make my butt look fat?"  :)

Today's "Day by Day" cartoon at the bottom of MB's blog touches on that .
It shows the PC liberal as being "Da man" and the young conservative as being the modern version of the "rebellious" Hippie sticking it to him .
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: JoeG on December 16, 2012, 10:52:25 AM
If people want to be angry about something they should be angry at the people who let this freak out on the street knowing he had mental issues and chose not to do anything about it,

I understand and share you anger and frustration.

In fact the mentally ill are actually as a group less violent than the normal population (statistically). I this not just that they are mentally ill. It has more to do with the level of emotional stress they are under, their sense of disconnection from others, lack of coping mechanisms and skills, lack of support structures like friends, church, social peers to help them process their emotions and stress. Add in drug habits, money problems, stupid role models in our culture (TV, internet).

What we look for is patterns of inappropriate aggressive reactions to smaller frustrations, willingness to intimidate others to get their way. lack of impulse control. Fear reaction by those around them. Denial by those around them.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: JoeG on December 16, 2012, 10:55:35 AM
I have a period and I'm not afraid to use it.

 :)

Made me laugh. My routine comment to those in an emergency with me is to "remember to breath"
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: JoeG on December 16, 2012, 11:06:25 AM
Gents,
 I will get our assessment sheet when I get into work tomorrow and post the details here for your review. It was put together by one of the 3 best expert on the planet (literally). There is a guy in the SS that is the expert for celebrities and a few psychologists that do this for us common folks and this guy who am I am happy to call a friend who is ex PD and is the "field guy" who wrote the book on how to do this in an organization. I call him "Marshall Dillon" as he loves this stuff! It he says "fascinating" or or interesting" 3 times in a case review I know I am in deep shit!

Joe
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: tombogan03884 on December 16, 2012, 11:54:05 AM
Gents,
 I will get our assessment sheet when I get into work tomorrow and post the details here for your review. It was put together by one of the 3 best expert on the planet (literally). There is a guy in the SS that is the expert for celebrities and a few psychologists that do this for us common folks and this guy who am I am happy to call a friend who is ex PD and is the "field guy" who wrote the book on how to do this in an organization. I call him "Marshall Dillon" as he loves this stuff! It he says "fascinating" or or interesting" 3 times in a case review I know I am in deep shit!

Joe

That one made me LOL.   ;D
I look forward to seeing this.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: MikeBjerum on December 16, 2012, 12:53:22 PM
sweet1911:

Anger is a natural grief response, and it is anger with the situation.  The thing that armchair I'm ok you're ok people forgot to read in the textbook was that most of the anger in grief is misdirected, and that misdirection is the reason it is called irrational anger.  It is anger that must be allowed to vent, but it must be redirected to the proper point as soon as possible and until it is the grief process will never proceed in a meaningful and useful way.

Our media, and groups like Brady will do all they can to fuel the anger and to keep it misdirected (irrational) as long as possible.  They will do this because it fuels their purpose.

We need to approach this with sensitivity and factual reason.

I have a post ready to go on Facebook meant to inform and put in perspective deaths caused by misuse.  I just need to decide when the appropriate time is.  I reviewed it this morning with some church leaders, and they say NOW.  I have not decided yet.  Today would get the highest readership, but this is still a raw wound that hasn't even started to scab up.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: tombogan03884 on December 16, 2012, 12:57:49 PM
sweet1911:

Anger is a natural grief response, and it is anger with the situation.  The thing that armchair I'm ok you're ok people forgot to read in the textbook was that most of the anger in grief is misdirected, and that misdirection is the reason it is called irrational anger.  It is anger that must be allowed to vent, but it must be redirected to the proper point as soon as possible and until it is the grief process will never proceed in a meaningful and useful way.

Our media, and groups like Brady will do all they can to fuel the anger and to keep it misdirected (irrational) as long as possible.  They will do this because it fuels their purpose.

We need to approach this with sensitivity and factual reason.

I have a post ready to go on Facebook meant to inform and put in perspective deaths caused by misuse. I just need to decide when the appropriate time is.  I reviewed it this morning with some church leaders, and they say NOW.  I have not decided yet.  Today would get the highest readership, but this is still a raw wound that hasn't even started to scab up.

Better do it now before the next episode of "Dancing with the Stars".
Nobody will remember what you're talking about after that.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: JoeG on December 16, 2012, 01:57:33 PM

I have a post ready to go on Facebook meant to inform and put in perspective deaths caused by misuse.  I just need to decide when the appropriate time is. 

M, I invite you to post it here for feedback.

I find myself reacting to this one somewhat differently than those in the past, in that my desire to do something to change the public conversation has crystallized with this event. I am trying to feel my way into finding something worth doing to shift the thinking. It seems like it will have to be on the web in some way.

At this point I can see that it needs to be aimed at the folks in the middle, not at the anitgun nuts. It needs to be informative and an open discussion.

It needs to be about the distinction between danger of irrational people with weapons and the lack of danger from rational people with weapons trained for SD.

It seems like some of the information is about how do you recognize the behaviors of an irrational person that might be a threat. As well as what do you do if you think you found one.

It has to be not "preaching to the choir". How do you reach the mainstream in a useful way.

Still just thinking out loud as i respect the conversation here.

Regards,
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: JoeG on December 16, 2012, 02:11:07 PM
Just read this very powerful and speaks to this thread

http://warhawkeishere.wordpress.com/2012/12/15/more-anti-self-defense-stupidity-is-answered/
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: tombogan03884 on December 16, 2012, 03:29:18 PM
JoeG, to share some thoughts on "changing the conversation".
While it may sound odd, we are lucky that earlier on Friday there was the knife incident in China .
Nearly the same number of casualties, but no gun involved .
It gives the lie to the "gun violence" narrative.
I commented to that effect on a news story and some liberal replied that the difference is knives injure, while guns kill .
We know that's BS, but it's easier for the uninformed to grasp if you say , that only makes a difference if you are pursuing a political agenda .
 If you want to seriously address the problem of violent attacks then there is no difference at all between attacks intended to kill people, and attacks intended to hurt people as badly as possible.
Second, as to your "audience", it's everybody. Friends, relatives, neighbors, anyone you might have a conversation with, letters to the editor, letters to your politicians .
Any time the subject comes up, or you can fit it in , keep hammering the basics,
It's not "guns", violently deranged people use whats available, if they can't buy a gun they'll steal one, if not that a knife, or home made poison gas as in the Tokyo subway attack.
The media caters to their desire for fame by turning every incident into a week long media event .
All mass attack perpetrators are messed up, it's not a "gun issue", it's a mental health issue.
Mass shootings only happen in "Gun Free Zones" where the attacker thinks his victims can't fight back .
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: Magoo541 on December 16, 2012, 03:48:18 PM
The shooting at the Clackamas Mall has revealed what "the people" think the solution is to these attacks on society-an armed citizenry.  Like someone mentioned before if a teacher shouldn't be armed, or can't be, should they be a teacher? 
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: PegLeg45 on December 16, 2012, 08:51:11 PM
The shooting at the Clackamas Mall has revealed what "the people" think the solution is to these attacks on society-an armed citizenry.  Like someone mentioned before if a teacher shouldn't be armed, or can't be, should they be a teacher? 

I read that there was a CCW carrier at the Clackamas Mall and he had his weapon readied, but could not take a shot due to an innocent bystander behind the shooter. He said it was too big a risk if he missed.
Too bad he didn't have a clear shot.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: jaybet on December 17, 2012, 12:07:45 AM
Evidently this situation was a little different than many others, but I/m starting to wonder what mental health medication these guys are on. Is there a drug company that has something that's got much worse side effects than they admit to...that causes maniacal behavior? Will scumbag lawyers be running ads in two years..."if you took so and so and killed your mom and dad, you may be entitled to compensation".
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: billt on December 17, 2012, 01:57:51 AM
What isn't being brought up in all of this talk of more gun control, is the fact we've already had an Assault Weapons Ban. It was in effect for 10 years, and it did nothing. Especially in preventing matters like this. In fact last Saturdays edition of the Arizona Republic, (yet another liberal rag), listed in a chronological order, all of these school and mass shootings. There were just as many when the AWB was in effect from 1994 to 2004, as there were after. Of course the flaming liberals will not mention that.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: Magoo541 on December 17, 2012, 09:07:27 AM
I read that there was a CCW carrier at the Clackamas Mall and he had his weapon readied, but could not take a shot due to an innocent bystander behind the shooter. He said it was too big a risk if he missed.
Too bad he didn't have a clear shot.
It is reported that right after the CCW holder attempted to engage the shooter the very next victim was the shooter himself. Like most of these cowards he quit fighting when confronted by someone that wasn't helpless
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: Solus on December 17, 2012, 12:54:47 PM
It is reported that right after the CCW holder attempted to engage the shooter the very next victim was the shooter himself. Like most of these cowards he quit fighting when confronted by someone that wasn't helpless

You hit the nail on the head.  He didn't go there to fight.  He went so he could kill without having to fight.   

We create places that can be accomplished by law.

At the school, several of the teachers, principal and the school psychologist died trying to fight this mad man unarmed by law, and probably by choice too.   If only one had been armed...just one of them.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: MikeBjerum on December 17, 2012, 01:01:23 PM
The reason and mindset of the anti's:

Most of you should know by now that my message is that it is about violence and not about the tool - any tool.  I have sent messages to several media outlets in our neighborhood offering my services to their staff to educate before they make fools of themselves with incorrect terminology or ideology.  This morning our local radio station fell off the wagon.  They have a short talk show between the morning guy and the general manager.  The gm is gone today, but the morning guy carried on.  He gave his wonderful words of wisdom kinda like Bob Costas.

I need a new radio for Christmas!  Why?

From the speakers above my desk:

If anyone goes Ted Nugent on me and states it is their right to own this crap they will answer to me!  I am not in the best shape, but I have the upper body strength to seriously hurt you while I have you in a headlock!

I AM going to that station in the morning to personally express that they way to answer a violent event like this is not with a violent rant on the radio.  By the way, it is going to be discussed in a business manor in the general managers office.  I am doing it in the morning, because I want morning jack ass to know I have been there.

P.S.
This morning dude is not our favorite radio dude tt!
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: billt on December 17, 2012, 03:16:16 PM
I am getting so damn sick and tired of having something that is my right to own and enjoy, under constant never ending attack by over emotional, opportunistic, stupid people who lack the common sense of an insect.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: billt on December 17, 2012, 03:21:22 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2012/12/17/discovery-hit-american-guns-canceled-as-hollywood-wrestles-with-links-to-gun/?intcmp=features

And the stupidity continues.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: MikeBjerum on December 17, 2012, 03:29:59 PM
Quote
http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2012/12/17/discovery-hit-american-guns-canceled-as-hollywood-wrestles-with-links-to-gun/?intcmp=features

And the stupidity continues.

From the article:

Quote
Sadly your program makes buying/owning guns seem fun, glamorous, even normal,”

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2012/12/17/discovery-hit-american-guns-canceled-as-hollywood-wrestles-with-links-to-gun/?intcmp=features#ixzz2FLZvtdgF

Glamorous ... I don't know, but I think the rest is right on!

Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: Big Frank on December 17, 2012, 03:38:39 PM
Yep. Fun and normal. Why can't the antis understand that?
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: lhprop1 on December 17, 2012, 03:41:55 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2012/12/17/discovery-hit-american-guns-canceled-as-hollywood-wrestles-with-links-to-gun/?intcmp=features

And the stupidity continues.

To be fair, the stupid bar was raised when that show first aired. 
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: MikeBjerum on December 17, 2012, 04:36:40 PM
I was just on the phone with a radio person I have worked with in the past.  We had an appointment to talk, and we covered a few items.  One question she asked me was about the NRA shutting everything down and being silent.  My reply:

I have had no communications, but I am aware that the NRA, a few other organizations, and most conservative legislators have gone silent.  My speculation, and it is purely my best guess, is that they are following their pattern of showing respect for the families and other victims.  I expect that after the bulk of services, and maybe after Christmas, they will be back with responsible comments.

I will be speaking to her tomorrow morning, and she indicated that she wants to get me back to the station later this week.

One thing I am fed up with, and based on my grief support and critical stress debriefing education and facilitation it is time to quit showing photos of the dead, quit talking to anybody that will talk, and quit stalking the funerals (two today) as they take place.  Give the families privacy - The number one request the Patriot Guard receives for active duty deaths is to "shield us from the public and media."  There are a group of people that need to be there and to participate, and we do need to know to a certain level.  But, the families, relatives, and friends need to work through this without looking up at the microscope lens.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: jaybet on December 17, 2012, 07:39:39 PM
O'Reilly had Alan Gottlieb on tonight, who tried to talk through O'Reilly's incessant verbal diarrehea. He made a giant point that the NRA refused to send a spokesperson to his show (can't imagine WHY Bill!).  He also invented a new "assault rifle" tonight...an "AK-15". He referred to it several times 'till Gottlieb corrected him.
Douche. 
I am happy to see some politicians framing the requests for a dialogue to include mental health,etc.

Still, it's going to be a long road.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: billt on December 17, 2012, 07:59:24 PM
He also had Bernie Goldberg on, (a regular weekly guest). Goldberg said he favors another Assault Weapons Ban. He just lost all of my respect, and I won't listen to another word that pass from his goldfish lips.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: tombogan03884 on December 17, 2012, 08:14:12 PM
O'Reilly had Alan Gottlieb on tonight, who tried to talk through O'Reilly's incessant verbal diarrehea. He made a giant point that the NRA refused to send a spokesperson to his show (can't imagine WHY Bill!).  He also invented a new "assault rifle" tonight...an "AK-15". He referred to it several times 'till Gottlieb corrected him.
Douche. 
[size=12pt]I am happy to see some politicians framing the requests for a dialogue to include mental health,etc.[/size]

Still, it's going to be a long road.

Yes, when the idiots start talking it's nice to hear them at least touch on something that actually applies in their anti gun rants.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: Big Frank on December 19, 2012, 08:20:46 PM
I saw this on another forum today.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: blackwolfe on December 19, 2012, 10:16:43 PM
Heard on the news in the last day or two that there were no mass murders in this country by juveniles until the late 70's.
So going back say 10 - 20 years before that what happened, what changed?  Ah the 60's!  Lyndon Johnson's great society.  As the products of the 60's reached adolescence is when these events started.  Coincidence? I think not.  You can do whatever you want, it's OK.  There is no shame.  There needs to be shame!
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: JdePietro on December 20, 2012, 05:52:46 AM
I haven't known what to say in these last couple of days. The tragic loss of life at such a young age causes such a visceral feeling. I have had the displeasure of being subjected to any number of media outlet calling for the ban on the very thing that could have curbed such senseless acts. This is one of the most disgusting displays of media ignorance and bias I have ever seen and the sick dogs that drool over the pain it causes everyone to see such senseless acts, their relentless quest to capitalize on every tear is unspeakable in its disgust.

This should not be a time to fight for our rights as human beings, this should be a time to bury our dead and celebrate what little life these people had. I spent yesterday sending emails and hand written letters to my US Congressmen. Today I will make phone calls but I truly believe we are in for one hell of a fight. Usually I would feel good about doing these things... This time however I do them because I know I must.

My thoughts go out to everyone on this board who is a parent. I hope that you are getting by as best you can.   
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: Tyler Durden on December 20, 2012, 06:46:39 AM
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: billt on December 20, 2012, 07:07:36 AM
The video you linked at the bottom was removed. What was it all about? Are there actually people that believe this whole thing didn't happen?  ???
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: tombogan03884 on December 20, 2012, 07:49:15 AM
Well, it's a thought .
We only have the media's word for it and this administration did create "Fast and Furious".
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: billt on December 20, 2012, 08:06:12 AM
What is "The Situation Room"? Is this a mainstream news media cable broadcast??
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: DeltaM on December 20, 2012, 10:13:06 AM
Heard on the news in the last day or two that there were no mass murders in this country by juveniles until the late 70's.
So going back say 10 - 20 years before that what happened, what changed?  Ah the 60's!  Lyndon Johnson's great society.  As the products of the 60's reached adolescence is when these events started.  Coincidence? I think not.  You can do whatever you want, it's OK.  There is no shame.  There needs to be shame!

Great point!!

What seems to be lost is if mayhem, infamy or revenge is the goal, then a Samari sword (take out the cowering teacher and go for the innocent little ones), a book-bag full of Molotov fire bombs, or PVC pipe bombs work too.  The instrument used is not the problem.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: tombogan03884 on December 20, 2012, 10:53:57 AM
Great point!!

What seems to be lost is if mayhem, infamy or revenge is the goal, then a Samari sword (take out the cowering teacher and go for the innocent little ones), a book-bag full of Molotov fire bombs, or PVC pipe bombs work too. The instrument used is not the problem.

That is where you are wrong, If he used a sword or axe it would have been one day local news with maybe one national mention.
But the objective has nothing to do with safety, the goal is to take your guns.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: Solus on December 20, 2012, 10:57:08 AM
Heard on the news in the last day or two that there were no mass murders in this country by juveniles until the late 70's.
So going back say 10 - 20 years before that what happened, what changed?  Ah the 60's!  Lyndon Johnson's great society.  As the products of the 60's reached adolescence is when these events started.  Coincidence? I think not.  You can do whatever you want, it's OK.  There is no shame.  There needs to be shame!

It started then.  The whole 'feel good' experience lead to a lack of respect and a lack of responsibility.

I have heard it in songs and in talking to the children of my generation....

If you are drunk or  high, you somehow aren't responsible for what you do.

The song might be titled   I am my own worst enemy.   Don't know for sure the title...that is just a lyric.

another line from that song....     I was drunk. I didn't mean to call you that.         or close to that.

Sickening to me.  Lack of respect and failure to take responsibility for your actions are the greatest personal failings.

Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: Solus on December 20, 2012, 11:00:35 AM
That is where you are wrong, If he used a sword or axe it would have been one day local news with maybe one national mention.
But the objective has nothing to do with safety, the goal is to take your guns.

Tom is only right.  

Doing something that would have an immediate impact on saving children's lives, like arming teachers and administrators, will not be on the table.  Saving children's lives does nothing to further the goal of disarming the citizens and having gun totting teachers save the day would do much to discredit it.

Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: tombogan03884 on December 20, 2012, 12:33:06 PM
Heard on the news in the last day or two that there were no mass murders in this country by juveniles until the late 70's.
So going back say 10 - 20 years before that what happened, what changed?  Ah the 60's!  Lyndon Johnson's great society.  As the products of the 60's reached adolescence is when these events started.  Coincidence? I think not.  You can do whatever you want, it's OK.  There is no shame.  There needs to be shame!

The media as usual get it wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school-related_attacks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_attacks_related_to_primary_schools

July 26, 1764    Franklin County, Pennsylvania, United States    Four Lenape warriors    10–11 dead, 2 injured    10–11    2    Enoch Brown school massacre. On July 26, 1764, four Lenape American Indian warriors entered a log schoolhouse of white settlers in what is now Franklin County, Pennsylvania, near present-day Greencastle. Inside were the schoolmaster, Enoch Brown, and twelve young students. Brown pleaded with the warriors to spare the children before being shot and scalped. The warriors then began to tomahawk and scalp the children, killing nine or ten of them (reports vary). Two children who had been scalped survived.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_attacks_related_to_secondary_schools

November 2, 1853    Louisville, Kentucky, United States    Matthew Ward    1 dead       A student, Matthew Ward, bought a self-cocking pistol in the morning, went to school and killed Schoolmaster Mr. Butler for excessively punishing his brother the day before. Even though he shot the Schoolmaster point blank in front of his classmates, he was acquitted.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_attacks_related_to_post-secondary_schools

March 11, 1908    Boston, Massachusetts, United States    Sarah Chamberlain Weed    2 dead    2       Elizabeth Bailey Hardee is shot to death by Sarah Chamberlain Weed at the Laurens School, a finishing school in Boston. Weed then turns the gun on herself and commits suicide.[1]

Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: PegLeg45 on December 20, 2012, 01:22:43 PM
The media as usual get it wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school-related_attacks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_attacks_related_to_primary_schools

July 26, 1764    Franklin County, Pennsylvania, United States    Four Lenape warriors    10–11 dead, 2 injured    10–11    2    Enoch Brown school massacre. On July 26, 1764, four Lenape American Indian warriors entered a log schoolhouse of white settlers in what is now Franklin County, Pennsylvania, near present-day Greencastle. Inside were the schoolmaster, Enoch Brown, and twelve young students. Brown pleaded with the warriors to spare the children before being shot and scalped. The warriors then began to tomahawk and scalp the children, killing nine or ten of them (reports vary). Two children who had been scalped survived.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_attacks_related_to_secondary_schools

November 2, 1853    Louisville, Kentucky, United States    Matthew Ward    1 dead       A student, Matthew Ward, bought a self-cocking pistol in the morning, went to school and killed Schoolmaster Mr. Butler for excessively punishing his brother the day before. Even though he shot the Schoolmaster point blank in front of his classmates, he was acquitted.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_attacks_related_to_post-secondary_schools

March 11, 1908    Boston, Massachusetts, United States    Sarah Chamberlain Weed    2 dead    2       Elizabeth Bailey Hardee is shot to death by Sarah Chamberlain Weed at the Laurens School, a finishing school in Boston. Weed then turns the gun on herself and commits suicide.[1]



We just didn't have CNN and as many sheep back then.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: blackwolfe on December 20, 2012, 02:05:11 PM
If I remember correctly the guy who stated the information was one of the I think Secret Service guys or Military guys that studied threat assessment and mass murders

Not defending the media propagandist, just trying to relate where the statement came from.
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: Big Frank on December 20, 2012, 03:10:44 PM
It's still not as bad as the Bath School disaster of 1927. There are other ways to kill kids.   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster
Title: Re: Connecticut school shooting
Post by: Solus on December 20, 2012, 03:14:11 PM
If I remember correctly the guy who stated the information was one of the I think Secret Service guys or Military guys that studied threat assessment and mass murders

Not defending the media propagandist, just trying to relate where the statement came from.

He still might be correct.  I don't think I saw any instances of mass shootings performed by juveniles in the links listed.