The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Reloading => Topic started by: alfsauve on March 10, 2012, 11:01:22 AM
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I'm movin' on with conquering problems in my shooting.
My current nut to crack is why in my 625 individual cartridges all seem to seat just fine in the chambers but when I load in a moon clip it doesn't seat all the way in and the cylinder won't close? I can push the cartridges a little and they will seat, but how do the guys in competition do it. They seem to just throw the moon clip at the cylinder, slap the gun shut and continue shooting.
Do they have slightly over-sized chambers?
Is their reloading die slightly undersized?
Are those special moon clips? I'm using some from S&W and some from Cylinder and Slide so they should work.
What's their secret?
WELL. Since I now have a brass chamber checker from EQW, I dropped a complete round in the checker and lo and behold it didn't seat all the way. BUT I had checked the brass after resizing and it slid easily in and out. What's different?
D U H The bullet.
The Cartridge Over All Length to be specific. I've been seating as recommend in the reloading manual to a 1.2" COAL. But just a little of the bullet is hanging up the cartridge. I'm using Berry copper plated 200Gr hollow points, btw. SO: I seated one until it fits fully into the chamber checker without assistance. I did 6 that way and put them in a moon clip. What a dream to load now.
So how far did I have to seat? 1.13" I KNOW that the smaller capacity inside the case will cause the pressure to be higher, but I'm on the light side of .45ACP loads anyway (the joys of revolver is you only have to have a load that gets the bullet out the barrel, not also operate the slide). So I don't think it will be a problem. I'll need to fire a few to check the MV and see how they feel. Also research other reloading manuals to see what if anyone reloads this short, before I re-seat my entire inventory.
Okay, on to the next problem
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Glad to hear you solved the problem alf. I wonder what the guys that don't reload do. Will factory ammo work without a hickup?
Someday I'm going to have a .45acp revolver that will work with moon clips. i always thought that was a nice set up.
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just for grins ;D drill a hole lengthwise through one of your plated bullets, place it on a "stick" and see if it will pass easily through the front of each chamber in the cylinder... try the same thing with a factory fmj...you may find that the plated bullet is a little larger than .452" or that one of the freebore holes is tight... if that is the case, it will swage down the bullet before it reaches the rifling, and not be very accurate...
my older M25 had the firing pin on the nose of the hammer, and I had to remove about .015" off the face of the hammer to get a reliable firing pin strike when using full moon clips
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Les, I really hadn't thought about that. The bullet should pass through the front half the cylinder without problem. It may just be the "rim" where the cartridge headspaces that's a little tight. Hmm. Thought to gnaw on, since I use moon clips, I don't really need the neck headspace. (No I'm not getting out Michael's Dremal tool!............. right away.)
I guess some experimentation is in order tonight. Both with my 625 and my 1911.
Berry's are "double struck" or sized and should be within tolerances.
Good question Blackwolfe, maybe I'm overlooking something else and have jumped to conclusions.
You betcha' though that the "pro's" have their ammo made by their sponsors to their specs. A number of companies (Atlanta Arms for one) offer ammo specifically for IPSC power factors. And there's probably no end to the "tuning" that pros might have done to their guns.
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Okay. did some checking this morning.
First the deeper seated bullets also seat flush in my 1911. That explains the failure to lock up sometimes.
The freebore of my 625 and the EGW chamber gauge are all around .451. As is the bullets. You can "seat" a bullet in the "front" end of either but it does not move freely. Think of it as about the same size as a case that has been run through the expander die. A tight fit.
I think this is a good dimension for a revolver in that it keeps the bullet aligned and seals the chamber so gas can't get around the bullet.
I did a quick check with my 9mm in its chamber gauge and it seats just a couple of mils of flush. 9mm have never given me a problem in Glock or XD's. My .357 chambers have a little more play in them. I didn't mic them but the bullet seems to slide in very easily.
Now on to research on-line reloading resources.
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alfsauve... do you use Lee carbide sizing dies for your autoloader calibers? if not, they size further down the case and web area, and alleviate a lot of chambering problems.... I use them on all my Dillons, even the 1050
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alfsauve... do you use Lee carbide sizing dies for your autoloader calibers? if not, they size further down the case and web area, and alleviate a lot of chambering problems.... I use them on all my Dillons, even the 1050
Les, I use Lee set for 9mm and Hornady for .45ACP. With both sets I have the Lee final sizer/crimper that basically resizes the case after bullet seating. The case, once I eliminate those too bulged to size, turns out not to be my problem. It's the bullet. Seated out too far it was hanging up on the freebore. Turns out it was happening on my 1911, but most of the time the momentum of the slide would seat the bullet those last couple of mils.
I checked with one printed manual and two on-line sources. A COAL of less than 1.2" isn't uncommon. The original SAMMI spec calls for a COAL of 1.25, but that's with Lead Round Nose, 230gr bullets. Seated at that depth the ogive on the bullet starts right about at the case mouth. Mine are 200gr, copper plated, truncated cone, hollowpoints. They have a longer base section to make up for the shape and the hollow cavity. I have to seat to a shorter COAL to get the ogive starting point down near the case mouth.
You think after reloading over a 40 year time span, I'd figure all this out by now?
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I used a 22# or 24# recoil spring with my 1911s...they would take a set to 18-20#.... always wanted to make sure the cartridge made it into the chamber (actually it cancelled the muzzle flip pretty well)...if you decide to change bullet design or weight (I find it is easier to make power factor with a heavier bullet)... check out Precision Delta...they do have a minimum order, but shipping is included (your Postman will not like you as they use the "if it fits, it ships" boxes )
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Les,
Precision has good prices, but not the models bullets I need.
I don't shoot lead anymore because I do too much indoor shooting and even outdoor you can create a rather thick fog doing a "Bill Drill" or "El Presidente". Plus for some shooting involving "reactive" targets" some ranges are insisting on hollow points or soft points.
I got in with Magnus Bullets a number of years ago and get a good deal from them. They're just across the border from me in AL. I get my .357 JSP from them. For the 9mm and .45ACP I use Berry Manufacturing plated. These use the same load as lead but aren't much more expensive. Both ship USPS Flat Rate and yes the mail man drives down my drive way as each box usually is in the 40-50# range.
What I need is a good jacketed .44magnum .....cheap. Like in the $0.16ea range. I use the Berry Plated ones but I have to keep the MV below 1,200, which for most of my shooting is okay, but I'd like to have a couple hundred full power loads for hunting/silhouette on hand too.
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Shot the .45ACPs that were set back to 1.13" COAL. No problems. Couldn't tell any difference in recoil. Accuracy seemed okay. I did a Bill Drill to finish with 3 moon clips. No where near anything competitive, but I felt good being able to "throw" the next set of rounds into the cylinder, slam it close and keep shooting.
I'm going to try and do an indoor chronograph in the morning in the basement. I may not have suitable backstop material.
Onward and upward. Now what holsters are permissible in IDPA?
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The IDPA handbook should have a good description of legal holsters. All of mine were acceptable and I wasn't even trying!
http://www.idpa.com/Documents/IDPARuleBook2005.pdf
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shoot USPSA you'll have more fun ;D
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Timothy, just haven't gotten around to buying the holsters yet. I figure anything close to the body, not excessively canted, and of course concealable would be okay. I've read through the IDPA rules, but it gets confusing between the different leagues. No rush. Have my eye on a Bianchi holster.
Les, I've shot (am shooting occasionally) USPSA. It it primarily a game. A run and gun game. A good game and yes it is fun. IDPA, for all the ribbing it takes about "vests" is, I think, does have a more practical slant in terms of defensive pistol.
Also, truth be known, there are more IDPA matches closer to me than USPSA.
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Sorry....I'm old and crotchety... I've had a case of the ass since attending my first match, and they told me that my Sparks 1AT holster was not legal as it was a "competition holster"....
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Yeah, Les, that's why I've held off some on IDPA. There are lot's of "gotcha's".
I may jump in with my G17 or XD9 and their stock holsters, just to get in the game. I'm looking at a Bianchi, 5, 5BH, or 7Shadow. I'm not "gaming" the game. I want something that is truly practical.
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With a Sierra 200 g, truncated cone, match bullet, No. 8825, the Sierra manual lists col as 1.155.
The loaded rounds check out fine with a Wilson gauge.
Refer to the Sierra manual for the listed powder charge, I use 6.2 grains of Universal.
Do use the the Lee crimping die, the bullets need to be tight in the case.
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Thanks, Robert.
I'm going to start crimping (I mean crimping) the .45s I use in the 625, I headspace on the moonclip and not the cartridge mouth it won't matter. ( Of course I then can't use those in my 1911.) I think this will help with the reloading as there will be less case mouth to hangup as it goes into the chamber.
I been giving Power Pistol a real serious try and it seems to work well for the .45, 9mm and .38spl loads. It's fairly inexpensive and seems to have a nice safety factor.
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Alf, be careful because you can "over crimp". Accuracy might very well suffer! Individuals more knowledgable than myself put it two different ways...."Crimp just enough to remove the belling of the case mouth" and "Your completed round should measure .452 (bullet dia. + 2 X case wall thickness" (I have seen .468 mentioned but that was with the H&G 68 200 gr. lead bullet).
FWIW
Richard
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I agree with Ellis, be careful with your crimp! You may actually swage the bullet in the case. When you are adjusting your crimp, make a dummy round up then pull the bullet and measure it. It is very easy to over crimp and reduce the size of your bullet.